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The concept of cheating - a study

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SimplyJakeAndAlex

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Reading through this thread http://www.gayheaven.org/t229192-should-i-or-should-i-not.html I found the subject quite interesting and what I propose here is a more in-depth study of the concept of cheating. As I said before in previous post and thread I am quite the atheist kind, and although I do have a concept of morality, there’s many things originating from religion that I will reject for my own living. What I propose with this thread is not a study to coerce everyone to cheat on their love ones, but rather a more advanced analyses of what and where marital infidelity comes from. I surely invite you all to comment on this.


Taking my own relationship as an example, I and Blondy Locks (Alex) are in an open relationship, this mean that we may from time to time have sex together with another person, but we also may have sex with somebody else then ourselves. However the deal is that we will make one another know about it. I know this seems a lot to boot, as some people would not understand why would we ever want to have sex with someone else than your love one. One answer to that is that human beings are not naturally monogamous, we never were. The first instances of such widespread enforcement were in Western Europe and it eventually gained worldwide acceptance in the modern world, especially in the Western Hemisphere. How did it happen? More so, how did it become known as the only acceptable standard to the God of the Bible when so many of the Bible’s founding patriarchs were openly polygamous? The answer of course would be one of greatest concern to Christians.


So what is cheating? As much as I agree that cheating is cheating, I also take into consideration that cheating is in fact a concept that was implanted years ago by the Romans and later on taken over by religion. As per a philosophical point of view cheating refers to the breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive or non competitive situation (this is what cheating is really). Cheating is also an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics and customs, therefore making the concept of cheating a subjective process.


Let’s take a quick look at some related history; the Roman was an empire built on conquest with incorporation. The secret of Rome's power lie in its ability to incorporate vanquished nations into her own political body. Never before had so many people been brought under one government without making slaves of most of them. The Romans were basically barbaric and lawless in characteristics, but were experts in adaptability, absorbing nations, cultures and religions and cross breeding them into one another by force if necessary (isn’t that remind you guys of an actual empire: the United States of America). Through this, the rulers sought to keep the entire empire under control. Gradually the Roman Empire became permeated with the philosophy of the Greeks and the religions of the Jews and Christians. The natural part of human life was raised to a higher plane. Combined with the Greek influence, Roman law and political ideas have had a strong influence on the West. Thus the Greek notion of democracy, the religions of the Jews and Christian, the law and political influence of the Romans, all these mixed together made the civilization of the later Western world. Clearly, history tells us that the Roman civilization is the direct ancestor of the modern West.


Due to the widespread illiteracy of the scriptures, especially that of the Gentile believers who were totally ignorant of the Torah, whatever the Catholic priests said were considered as God’s Law and divine truths. One area of total distortion was that of marital relationship. Surprisingly for some of us, it was common for Catholic priests to have multiple wives and mistresses. In 726AD, it was acceptable for a man with a sick wife to take a second wife so long as he looked after the first one. With concerns for protecting Church property from inheritance however, offspring could not inherit church property and it was later declared that all sons of priests were illegitimate. In 1022, Pope Benedict VIII banned marriages for priests (monogamous or polygamous). Finally in 1139, Pope Innocent II voided all marriages of priests and all new priests had to divorce their wives. All these were done to possess and protect money and church property. Making polygamy a sin and marriage unacceptable for a priest was a slow and purposeful process.


Backing up this hidden agenda, was an anti-human Greek doctrine concocted from the pit of hell by the hatred of Satan, manifested as holiness against all human nature and passions. It is called asceticism; the paganistic teaching that to be spiritual is to be poor, thus sex and all human passions would have to be denied for the highest fulfillment found only in monastic lifestyle. This distorted view of human passions and sexuality put a terrible burden on the shoulders of all who wanted to be spiritual. Worse still, it became the root and the source of much more other lies and deception regarding holiness and marriage forms in the whole Christian world


Celibacy was propagated as the new standard of high attainment in holiness. Sex was taken to be unclean and sinful. Marriages were painted, at best as being a necessary evil to guard against sexual sins such as fornication. Because of such a heathen belief, monks and nuns were considered holier and closer to God than anybody else, and priests would necessarily be celibates. Marriage was considered an activity of the flesh, if possible, to be avoided by those seeking spirituality. Thus monogamy would be tolerated as an acceptable norm among the "less spiritual" and polygamy would be condemned as an abomination. Clearly, Greek philosophy and Roman monogamy were in control of the entire Church. This prevailed in what is known as the Dark Ages of the Church.
Christianity was strongly and aggressively propagated from the Roman Empire into the West and from the West into the rest of the world and thus came to be known as a western religion. It should be noted that the Romans were notoriously monogamous due to an inherent exclusivity in monogamy. These are some of the practices and enforcement, even on their own monarchs and nobles. Nero, the Caesar who divorced, banished and murdered his first wife in order to marry the second. He blamed his atrocious act of burning Rome on the Christians. What resulted were countless martyrs. Even Napoleon the great conqueror who crowned himself could not overthrow this law, and had to divorce his beloved wife, Josephine in order to marry another so as to yield a son. Such facts and examples are clearly evident in European history. Yet were the Romans truly monogamous? History tells us that in the Roman Empire and in medieval Christendom, though marriage was monogamous, mating was often polygamous. A lord of a manor would have one wife but his household was set up as an unofficial harem of servant girls


This briefly sums up the origin of should-be monogamy theology and ideology. Thus we see how Christianity was corrupted with the Greco-Roman philosophy and values to the point of being almost totally heathen, bowing down to saints and angels, paying for salvation with money and penance. Despite reformations and revivals in the 15th century that challenged and overthrew the ritualistic corruption, Greco-Roman values and interpretation of the Bible are still very much in the Christian lifestyle. This includes enforced monogamy, the Roman form of idolizing woman and the goddesses. Christianity today is still very much romanized where monogamy is Law rather than being Hebraic in nature where polygamy was well accepted in the sight of God and man. By renouncing the Jews, the ways of the patriarchal fathers and their ways were also renounced, thus so was Biblical polygamy. This is a big mistake of the early Church. And because the reformed Church did not thoroughly cleanse herself from Romanism, Biblical patriarchy was only partially restored and polygamy is still considered an abomination. The Universal Church is still arrogant and piteously far from returning to her Hebraic Roots. She will, but only through much trials and tribulations before she is willing to let go of her sacred should-be monogamy calf.
Christianity was propagated from the Roman Empire into the West and from the West into the rest of the modern world. And wherever the gospel is preached, Roman monogamy was portrayed as God’s only divine standard. Luther could not change it. There were too much to undo. But because the major part of the world is still unchristianized, there are actually much more societies of the world that are polygamous than monogamous. The wolf spirit behind the corrupt Romans still continues, out living the Roman Empire, and is manifesting itself, not just in the religious system of Roman Catholicism in Rome, and in the religious systems of Protestant Christianity, but also in the supremacy of Western culture, economy and technology. Thus the ambition of this spirit to conquer the world did not die with the Roman Empire, but continues into the supremacy of the Western world as she becomes the whore, whose wine the kings and the nations of the world are drunk with. She is the Jezebel of Revelation, the spirit of Babylon that lived through the ages. It is now in the Greco-Roman Worldview that is fast taking over the world. It is so transparently clear that there is no true gospel except in the Jesus that came through the Hebraic race, not just in race, but also in culture and interpretation.


"Should-be" monogamy never gained worldwide attention until the last few centuries. The should-be monogamy idea was not popular in previous generations, not until its strong uprising in the last 150 years or so. In fact, polygamy was still openly practiced in the last generation in non-western countries, and is today still practiced in modern societies, even though not so openly because of the outcry of the Western Feminism movement. How quickly the should-be monogamy concept has taken over, such that it makes polygamy appear sinful and wrong ever since the beginning.



The next reason is that during the last war torn period and after, polygamy was badly abused by irresponsible men who had made it appear evil. The restoration of women’s dignity and respect, giving them their "rightful liberation" and equality had automatically promoted monogamy to be the only right form of marriage, and polygamy since then was declared abusive and unworthy of a good respectable marriage. Supported by the deceived Church as good teaching and declared as the only right way of marriage instituted by the Holy God, this "truth" becomes law, not just among Catholics and Protestants, but also in modern societies. Alas, feminism has in recent years changed partner, now courting what I call Homogamy, which is homosexuality and lesbianism, relentlessly fighting for its legalization. Monogamy is fast becoming out of date. The passing fad seems quick to come and fast to go, and the poor church is presently being dragged into Homogamy. She had compromised once, why not twice? Thus the Church did not just commit spiritual adultery, but also spiritual lesbianism with Jezebel. Thus we see another logical trend. The more feminism is in power in a land, the more monogamous it is and the more it is swept over by homosexuality and lesbianism. The more patriarchal and polygamous the land, the least likely it is to be taken over by homosexuality and lesbianism.


Another reason for the quick popularity of monogamy lies in the exclusive nature of the should-be monogamy form that is extremely appealing. But what exactly is the exclusive nature of this modern monogamy form? "Romantic love means finding a soul mate – someone whose values and sense of life mirror our own. We feel a drive to organize our life around this person and no one else. If someone says, ‘I love you’ in a romantic context, this what they are understood to be saying." This seems a good modern notion of romantic monogamy that we would all readily accept. In real modern day practice, monogamy is but the exaltation of free love and the justification of self-love. Possessiveness is not only condoned, but glorified. That’s why it is so appealing. It readily satisfies the inner desire of a woman to possess her man exclusively, and the inner need of a man to please and idolize his woman completely above all other things, to be completely engrossed in her only. A candlelight dinner never fails to portray a very romantic moment. We say, "Oh! How romantic!". But how awfully unromantic it will be if another party is involved. For should-be monogamy to work, the elements of romantic exclusiveness must be involved. I am not saying that candlelight dinners and privacy are bad. But essentially, this reveals that the elements of the Roman spirit are nothing but exclusivity, possessiveness and idolatry. And such elements are perpetuated as dominant factors into all aspects of modern life of the should-be monogamy culture and this is where the failings begin. God and others are eventually out of place, the 2 persons involved finally imprison one another, thus marriages of such kind are open to destruction. Let’s probe further.


The origin of the should-be monogamy was not Biblical as assumed by many. It’s definitely not from the biblical patriarchal fathers, as many of them were polygamous. It really was from Rome, where the whore of Babylon still rules to this day. Although in Western Europe, the idea of romantic love (in some sense) has had a long history, its acceptance as the proper basis of marriage has never been as widespread as it has been in America culture. What was distinctive about the American outlook and represented a radical break with its European past were its unprecedented commitment to political freedom, its individualism, its doctrine of individual rights, and, more specifically, its belief in a person’s right to happiness here on earth. Both the individualism and the secularism of this country were essential for the idea of romantic love to take wide cultural root. It’s now crystal clear where should-be monogamy originated and why it is so appealing to the human self. Historically, the Romans were known to be highly monogamous but kept mistresses and abused their maids and slaves, and were also known to be very sadistic in sports and love making. And we know in part, this characteristic has found its place in modern society.


Even the word, Roman-tic tells us where should-be monogamy is from, the Roman culture and the Roman Empire which is Western Europe, where values contradict biblical standards. And we can be so blind as not to see it before our eyes when we read the word Roman-tic, and yet we expound and exalt it at every wedding and declared it as holiness at every pulpit! To be very romantic is to be very Roman. To be very Roman is to be very anti-patriarchy and very anti-God. We are still under the power of the Roman Kingdom (which was the last kingdom of the statue as seen by Nebuchadnezzar), even thought it had collapsed. But the church is still under that power and is still not yet into the Kingdom of the Rock that was not made with hands!


Looking at the name, practices and ordinances of the Roman Catholic Church, where polygamy is never to be tolerated, it would be blind not to see that the culture of Rome had become the culture of the Roman Catholic Church. It is also clear that the medieval society and the modern world are the children of the Roman Empire. The medieval society was a hodgepodge of customs, language, laws and attitudes taken from the late great Roman Empire, with some Germanic admixture and has now shaped our modern world. Both the medieval world and our own world are very much descended from Rome. By the 14th century, much of the Roman influence was no longer obvious; the culture of Rome had become the culture of the Roman Catholic Church. Some educated commoners who look beneath the surface could find the Roman roots of the many institutions of medieval culture. But the Romans are now ancient history and what they had left behind had been well tended to by the Christian clerics. And today we still live in the shadows of a culture the Romans began creating 2800 years ago.


What about the Protestant world? With America drinking it all in and taking the lead, "civilized" nations swallowed the Romans’ doctrine of love, digested it into her religious system, namely Christianity, and exported it with the Gospel as a total package for living. Alas, wherever the Gospel went, the whole package was received and swallowed without question as total Gospel truth. Thus the true Biblical Gospel which God has ordained to be rooted in the Middle Eastern patriarchal culture is deceptively suppressed and replaced with one that is adulterated by a heathen Roman culture. There will always be some tolerable societal differences in all parts of the world, but the ways of God were defined and taught in the Biblical patriarchal setting of our forefathers where polygamy was not just tolerated, but accepted. But the western Gospel is romantically and not patriarchally inclined, thus it is actually not just anti-polygamy but also in truth, anti-patriarchy. This is why the Old Testament seems to contain many passages of polygamy and patriarchy that cannot be expounded by western Protestant Christianity and this is where her blindness and powerlessness lie.

History brings forth conclusive evidence. The enforced should-be monogamy, no matter how much it is sanctioned legally or socially, or how righteous it is portrayed religiously, it was never originated from the Scriptures, and has never been set as the only standard for marriage by God. It originated from the pagan Romans that had and are still overtaking the world under the modern title, Greco Roman Worldview.
With regard to human relationships, couples tend to expect sexual monogamy of each other. Then cheating commonly refers to forms of infidelity, particularly adultery. However, there are other divisions of infidelity, which may be emotional. Cheating by thinking of, touching and talking with someone you are attracted to may be equally damaging to one of the parties. Emotional cheating may be correlated to that of emotional abuse, which to date is treated seriously in a court of law as physical cheating. With the expansion of understanding of other cultures, there is a wide spectrum of what cheating means. When in a committed relationship, the definition of cheating is based on both parties' opinions, and both parties may redefine their understanding to match the party at an either lower or higher extreme of this definition. Some couples simply believe that cheating constitutes doing anything, whether verbal or physical, that one would not do in front of their significant other. Such examples would include: expressing attraction to another person, electronic communications, texting, data, kissing, making out, and sexual relations.


Many people consider cheating to be any violation of the mutually agreed-upon rules or boundaries of a relationship, which may or may not include sexual monogamy. For example, in some polygamous relationships, the concepts of commitment and fidelity do not necessarily hinge on complete sexual or emotional monogamy. Whether polygamous or monogamous, the boundaries to which people agree vary widely, and sometimes these boundaries evolve within each relationship.
The concept of cheating is ubiquitous in our moral lives: It occurs in contexts as varied as business, sports, taxpaying, education, marriage, politics, and the practice of law. Yet despite its seeming importance, it is a concept that has been almost completely ignored by moral theorists, usually regarded either as a morally neutral synonym for non-cooperative behavior, or as a generalized, unreflective term of moral disapprobation.



Coming back with my relationship with Alex, I love my blondy locks dearly, however I do not consider his body to be my entire possession and therefore I am more than willing to share his awesomeness with somebody else, however his love belongs to me and when the love is gone or transferred to another person, that is where I would consider that my dude has cheated on me. If there is no love and it was purely physical I do not consider it cheating. Also let it be said that cheating in term of relationship is also related to the fact that one would go have sex with another person without telling his lover. This is not only cheating, it’s also lying, which add a complete new perspective to the word cheating in my opinion.

BIBLIOGRAPHY


  • Medieval Life And The 100 Years War: The Legacy of Rome
  • The Constantine Conspiracy - by Rabbi David M. Hargis
  • Celibacy Of The Clergy, The Catholic Encyclopedia
  • Roman Interpretation? - by Beryl Ng, Word Aflame Newsletter
  • The Life-Study of Revelation - Witness Lee's - pp. 140-143 ISBN 0-87083-161-5
  • Romanism Distorts God's Vision Of Morality And Marriage - by Steve John Butt, GFM
  • Queen Of The Reformation (Martin Luther’s wife) - by Charles Ludwig
  • Whatever Happened To Western Civilization? - by Jay Rogers
  • Jewish Roots of Christianity – Teaching by Rev Anna Lim, El-Shaddai Conventions
  • Taking Responsibility – by Dr Nathaniel Branden
 

Tjerk12

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Jake, thanks for this beautiful piece of work.
As a fellow atheist I must admit that you have amazing knowledge of Christian history.

For me cheating as a concept is based on my own values, which are of course influenced by my social environment. Also it is the question if entering into an ethical covenant automatically means giving up ALL PRIVACY. I am not sure if I can do that.
Right wing parties in The Netherlands like to emphasize our Christian roots. Rather short-sighted in my opinion, since our Christian history is ample 2000 years old, while our real roots go back to many, many, many thousands of years without any Christianity and are without any doubt from elsewhere, outside The Netherlands.

Sex was taken to be unclean and sinful, you write. How funny can language be? Sinful is phonetically in Dutch “Zinvol”, what means “Full of Sense”!
 
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SimplyJakeAndAlex

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As a fellow atheist I must admit that you have amazing knowledge of Christian history.
One needs to know in order to say why he doesn't abide to the philosophy... I certainly don't see myself saying I hate or dislike something if I don't know why I hate it. This article is actually a document to which I added and modified some dates in order to explain the concept of monogamy versus polygamy and the definition of "cheating". And I agree with you as per my relationship with Blondy locks is based on a mutual agreement. Although we do not reject the fact that him or I could have desire to have sex with another person of either gender. However I can say that it's not likely to happen since we enjoy one another way too much. :p
 
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SimplyJakeAndAlex

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Are we animals?

This addition is for those who may come forward saying that I reduced human being to their animal form... I did no such things. Because:

human beings are animals in their physical form only. As a mammal species, we have the most advanced brains of all other species on the planet, and our ability to reason, form concepts, to think, is unique to us. From what I know dolphins (as intelligent as they are) have not landed a man on the moon. Gorillas, no matter how skilled at sign language they may be have never wrote a novel or cracked the human genome, human being can fix themselves and fix other. I'm still waiting to see a giraffe with a medical doctorate. There is nothing on earth like a human being, and therefore no comparisons to animals are valid, especially when it comes to something as complicated and ultimately brain-oriented as sex.


While animals mate out of instinct - and sometimes at their own peril, like the various spider and insect males who give their lives to the female after mating - no human being ever mates without engaging their mind on some level. We actively choose to mate or not to, to reproduce or not to, and in every case, we never merely pursue someone simply because they are of the opposite sex. We have sex for more than procreation, whereas animals, with extremely rare exceptions, mate only during their fertile phases and only for the purposes of creating offspring. We also continue to love and care for our children even after they're weaned, which most animals don't. Humans and animals are more different than we are alike; arguing that we should be as indiscriminately sexual as they are is ridiculous.
 

luke.rhineheart

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Thank you for your essay. That things you've written about the history of monogamy in western culture and how it got embedded in western morality is very interesting.

History apart, for me the take home message would be this:
Many people consider cheating to be any violation of the mutually agreed-upon rules or boundaries of a relationship, which may or may not include sexual monogamy. ]
[/LIST]
 

jw4833

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I for one appreciate you taking time to post this perspective on cheating. However, what I noticed in your post is the key point of significance that you've mentioned that although you and your partner have an open relationship, you both participate with another outside partner, and when you decide to venture off alone without the other, you both inform each other prior of this taken place. Which to me, instill honesty amongst the two of you because all actions are taken upon consideration and respect for each other without doing or performing sexual acts with someone without the each of you not knowing what the other one is up to. The latter part is what I consider cheating. What you two have is an open relationship with an understanding between the two of you.
 

Whisper

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Hmm, how to start... Well, first comes to my mind that I hope that the replies to this thread will not turn this into a war zone... And then to cheating ;)

I started to think what I consider as cheating and realized that it isn't that simple question to answer. What I am going to write are my thoughts about things Jake mentioned in his text; cheating, open relationship and polygamy.

***

I'm mostly straight woman and I've been together with my bf for 15 years. During that time I have been kissing with many women and I don't think that as cheating (yes, he knows what I have done), but when I kissed with another guy it felt cheating (yes, he knows about that too, but not that I did kiss this guy more than one time). So I don't think kissing a girl is cheating but kissing a guy is? Why does it feels like that, I have no answer. But if I'd have sex with a woman, that I'd think as cheating as well as if I'd have sex with a guy. My bf kissing a woman ->cheating, him kissing a guy -> can I watch, will you suck my bf... Confusing.

So, how about open relationship then? After 15 years together if we suddenly decided to change the nature of our relationship, what would happen? Could I have sex with another man? Could I accept my bf having sex with another woman? How about with another man (in that case I would want to watch :p)? Would we be jealous or would it only strengthen our relationship? I can't answer those, but I know it would be hard or even impossible to separate my feelings from sex. For me it may not be just sex.

And then there are polygamous relationships, but before I go further I have a question. I know there are culture and religions where a man has many wives, but are there any similar ones with one woman and many husbands?

So, the polygamous relationship... When I think about it, yes, I could live with two or three guys as long as we all would love each other. But I can't imagine living like I would be the one who is visited by her men separately. But living with several women and one man doesn't feel like a thing for me.

It feels like that I have questions after questions left... But what comes to that question about cheating, my opinion is that we all have different thoughts about what is cheating.

***
I may continue this, now I can't think clearly :(
 
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SimplyJakeAndAlex

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I for one appreciate you taking time to post this perspective on cheating. However, what I noticed in your post is the key point of significance that you've mentioned that although you and your partner have an open relationship, you both participate with another outside partner, and when you decide to venture off alone without the other, you both inform each other prior of this taken place. Which to me, instill honesty amongst the two of you because all actions are taken upon consideration and respect for each other without doing or performing sexual acts with someone without the each of you not knowing what the other one is up to. The latter part is what I consider cheating. What you two have is an open relationship with an understanding between the two of you.
Well let it be clear if ever I or my dude would have sex with anybody without a priori telling one another I would also consider it as cheating because I certainly would not like the fact that he goes around having multiple relationships without telling me. And there is also the part of agreeing on how many is too many. Now basically our unwritten contract does not say that we have to do this every week.

Lets say I would take into consideration to go back in making porn (not likely to happen, for the porn industry I am now ancient LOL)... is it cheating, is it work? Where would we draw the line between cheating and work when you are a porn performer with a boyfriend in real life. Take per example Kyros & Dillon, they are a real couple and they have been working on set having sex with other partners. Alex and I have that very same type of commitment where love links us together more than the physical. So yes we are in a very open relationship, however just to give an idea of the very last time we had a third wheel in our bed was very much 2 years from now. So far we are much satisfied with the two of us but the doors are not closed and beside, Alex being younger and let's face it much cuter than I am he'd be more often the one having sex with others but being very shy the only time he'd accept to have sex with someone else is if I'm there with him.:cheers:
 
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jeansGuyOZ

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Hey Jake, I don't suppose you could expand on that a bit more? :p:p:p

I'll read it in its entirety sometime when I have a couple of months' holiday. Meanwhile, I'll just offer my own take on it:

Cheating means being dishonest. If you have a partner and you have an open relationship, that means by definition that you are both free to play around, and that you both know this. Having another... ahem... liaison is not cheating in that circumstance. If you have a realationship that's SUPPOSED to be monogamous, or you are supposed to tell each other about your other affairs, but in fact you don't, then that's cheating on them.

The test is pretty simple, really. Is someone deceiving someone else, or are they not?

Relating it to religion or lack thereof, Roman customs etc is all irrelevant in my opinion. If you have your own set of ethics that tell you that this kind of dishonesty is OK, then that's your belief and I am not going to change that, but you shouldn't try to present it as some kind of statement about history or about organised religion. I call myself agnostic, but I happen to think that for humans to treat each other with decency is just a very sensible thing to do, and that view has nothing to do with religion.

Sorry if I have missed some important things in your post, but if you look at the length of your post you might agree that it's not entirely my fault. ;)
 
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SimplyJakeAndAlex

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Hey Jake, I don't suppose you could expand on that a bit more? :p:p:p
I could but I believe it's quite enough ;)

I'll read it in its entirety sometime when I have a couple of months' holiday.
Well sorry if it was too long for you but that's the way one do a research.

Cheating means being dishonest. If you have a partner and you have an open relationship, that means by definition that you are both free to play around, and that you both know this. Having another... ahem... liaison is not cheating in that circumstance. If you have a realationship that's SUPPOSED to be monogamous, or you are supposed to tell each other about your other affairs, but in fact you don't, then that's cheating on them.
This sum up what I said in additional posts

Relating it to religion or lack thereof, Roman customs etc is all irrelevant in my opinion. If you have your own set of ethics that tell you that this kind of dishonesty is OK, then that's your belief and I am not going to change that, but you shouldn't try to present it as some kind of statement about history or about organised religion. I call myself agnostic, but I happen to think that for humans to treat each other with decency is just a very sensible thing to do, and that view has nothing to do with religion.
That where I have to disagree with you since you pointed out that you didn't read the whole thing, which I don't force anyone to but to say that this is irrelevant when you read two or three paragraphs of the study, that to me doesn't hold water as a counter-study. The study is about where monogamy MAY come from, i invite you to counter prove what I wrote with the same level of argumentation. I do have my own set of ethics and if you had read the post carefully I didn't say in the whole post that it was OK to be dishonest with one partner. If one is going to be dishonest with his partner they shouldn't be together in the first place. I just said that my dude an I are in an open relationship (I do NOT pretend that everyone should do the same).

Now as per religion and monogamy, please come forward with a counter study that proves that religion has nothing to do with monogamy and/or fidelity and I will definitely take the time to COMPLETELY READ your point. You have the right to question what I wrote, but yet come up with something as detailed and I will definitely read it. What I wrote is certainly not an attack, and what I believe doesn't mean that religion does not interest me and it also doesn't mean that I do not respect other's philosophy and believe. It is quite important here to pay attention not to put words where I didn't. ;)

Sorry if I have missed some important things in your post, but if you look at the length of your post you might agree that it's not entirely my fault.
What you see there it's nothing, through my studies I've read and wrote studies more lengthy than this one and in three years have read pretty much over 300 books... I don't have intellectual laziness (not saying that you do ;)). And one thing that I always do before replying, I read all the post - I know mine is very long but you know you don't have to read it if you don't feel like it, I don't force no one into reading what I post you know:p I make sure that I fully understand and if I don't ask questions. So that you missed important point, Hell yeah you did because you'd find out that I'm not attacking anyone and not suggesting anyone that Cheating is OK. :cheers: Cheating is cheating Punto Finalmente! I just wanted to draw a little study on the concept of cheating. Again you are more than welcome to go point by point and wave it all. But until you do I just consider you reply as not relevant to what I wrote. Sorry! But I know you have better to do so I may as well forget about it. ;)
 
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777

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I agree with jeansguy. It's not that difficult, nor has anything to do with religion. I think monogamy as an social norm today has more to do with families, and nothing with feminism...

Relationship culture has been having the demand for monogamy or polygamy depending of what is most beneficial for survival or as it is, production of offspring. There's both kind of people in both men and women, ones who are monogamous, ones who are polygamous by nature, and most are somewhere between, capable of both.

A marriage offers the legitimate children the best chances at survival at the moment. Plus, considering what you claimed about feminism, the demand for especially female monogamy is beneficial for the man, while the husband's infidelity is also beneficial for the man, and harming basically only the mistresses and their children. Our culture is still very much build to support this, and it's a conservative, patriarchal construction, and has nil to do with feminism, in fact it's something feminists around the world fight against because it's harmful for women.

The more feminism is in power in a land, the more monogamous it is and the more it is swept over by homosexuality and lesbianism. The more patriarchal and polygamous the land, the least likely it is to be taken over by homosexuality and lesbianism.

I'm not sure what you mean by this..? Taken over by homosexuality???

If we consider the so called patriarchal polygamy it has meant and still means that "we have an open relationship, my wife just doesn't know it" or maybe, "I have several wives but they aren't allowed to have other husbands". There's a huge double standard in what is ok for men and what is ok for women.

Women's liberation hasn't changed the common demand for monogamy, but it has brought the idea that the woman is a partner in a relationship, not someone who's opinions doesn't matter. You can ask what conservative people demand for... the return of the "traditional family values" is very high on the list, and by they usually mean monogamous marriages (and then men can have the secret affairs by the side because women would be again so dependent of their husbands' incomes and unable to do anything).

There's other cultures where this kind of monogamous behaviour isn't true, like somewhere it's typical that a woman sleeps with a lot of men and names all of them as possible fathers, who are all ready to provide for the child, and jealousy is strongly discouraged by the society. In other (now diminishing cultures) it's has been typical for brothers to marry one woman, there's cultures where it's typical for the man to stay overnight with a woman in her house, and then return to his own (that he shares with his sister, where he is the in fact father of his sister's children, just like the uncle of his children is their in fact father), there's cultures where everyone is expected to be bisexual. It's all about the culture where on grows up in, and the current western one is winning because it's promoted by other means, not only by religion.

And when it comes to Roman concept of marital fidelity, it's true that it was expected, but it didn't concern slaves. That was also true with women in reality. High-born especially had very low birth rate (as we nowadays know, due to lead pipes used for water) and adoption was common, so biological children weren't necessary, hence sexual fidelity wasn't either. Romans also weren't shy about sexual matters, they had trained bed slaves, animals and who knows what for their pleasure (women too).

ETA: I don't mean to imply that the Roman times would have been better for women, just that history often leaves out anything that the writer (usually male) was uncomfortable with, which usually means women are sexless or strictly moral beings.

Also, like zortek points out, relationships predate monotheisms, as they do predate Romans, and the concept is in other cultures as well. Your post is one point of view to the western moral standards, but there's others.
 
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topdog

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...Many people consider cheating to be any violation of the mutually agreed-upon rules or boundaries of a relationship, which may or may not include sexual monogamy...]

a good read!

Monogoamy may have long and complicated history, but "cheating" is, I think, pretty simple. You summed it up right there. Cheating is the same whether you have one partner, or three. Whether your relationship is open, closed, or stuck in the middle - cheating is throwing aside the boundaries on which you and your partner(s) have agreed to observe.

The part that gets complicated is coming to agreement on exactly where those boundaries are. Especially when one or both of you don't like to talk about those things. Then you get into the situation where each person has a different idea about what is cool and what is not.

One other truism: Cheating is not defined by whether you think that you have broken the rules, but by whether your partner feels that you have violated them. All the more reason to get on the same page from the beginning.
 

zortek

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a good, thought provoking thread, and in my opinion everyone is right.

to me, the concept of and attitude to 'cheating' is purely subjective. each must determine their own boundaries. my own experience, (i identify as gay, but by social definition would be classified bi) is that the definition of cheating varies even for the individual from relationship to relationship.

i would like to add a couple of points to ponder...

relationships, including monogamous relationships, predate monotheism.
monogamy may have been adopted by the roman/christian authority, but is not its invention.

we are animals.. albeit sentient animals. we are still subject to some very strong primal instincts (fight, flight, fuck) no matter how much intellectualisation or religious restriction we attempt to impose upon ourselves.

throughout the wider animal pantheon there are many kinds of relationships, including monogamous (even the famous gay penguins :) )
 

jeansGuyOZ

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Again you are more than welcome to go point by point and wave it all. But until you do I just consider you reply as not relevant to what I wrote. Sorry! But I know you have better to do so I may as well forget about it. ;)
I was going to read your post through again and respond, as you suggested. But on reading your final sentence, I hardly see the point.

I wasn't attacking you, and I thought I made that clear, just trying to sum up my own feelings on the subject.
 

777

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I checked the bibliography and this came up. Especially the conclusion part is interesting considering the bibliography you provided. But the whole thing, and the front page.
 
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SimplyJakeAndAlex

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I checked the bibliography and this came up. Especially the conclusion part is interesting considering the bibliography you provided. But the whole thing, and the front page.

This is coming up from multiple study dear, most of the greatest part come from there but yet it does not comes all of from it. Now see the whole point of this text was to bring forward a quick view on the origin of monogamy/cheating... I did of course selected the text I needed in order to construct a rhetoric... but you see that's the way researcher proceed. Now when you came up with feminism, which was only a very small paragraph of the whole text, why did you stump on "feminism" when the whole study is certainly not targeting anything about feminism? It may have made a quick references to feminism but at a very small level... the question that I raising to you is? What is feminism to YOU and than how many types of feminists there is... I've learned that in my classes so therefore I would like you to come this time with your OWN concept of what is feminism and yet explain in this thread how did you come to develop on feminism when this wasn't about feminism at all.

As per the article thanks for posting the link... but sweetie I have deliberately posted the bibliography coming directly from it so you guys can find and refer to it as well... do you really think I didn't know what I was doing by posting the bibliography :rofl:? I believe we all know how to research on Google, and beside my studies in Sociology I am a Network/Server administrator if I believe that only me can find articles by googling it I'd take my degree and give it back to my university saying that I don't deserve it. Come on Girl I do have a degree in sociology and I do know stuff of my own and I can sure tell you before you even go search for it on the net the 4 different types of feminism because I have them right in by library, a book from Mrs. Therese Casgrain, a pro feminist, from Quebec who happened to become a teacher later at the very same university I went. My wing of sociology was exactly named after her.

Now why did I post this article? I said it from the very beginning, I wanted to take a more scientific approach of the issue of monogamy versus cheating and I could have well go using the 1000 of books I had here already and make it looks it was coming from me (don't kid yourself I am not that kind of dude). I can still respond to you without the help of any books or references. Through my years of study in University which I am still doing am because I'm pursuing my Master degree at the right moment, the basic of research is to be able to take a research or different point of information (that often what constitutes a doctorate) and counter analyses it... and I have this ability. The post that you have been reading has been modify since you found the website you can sure bring forward what I let off... now can you explain why I let it off?

In all and all I believe that this have raised and brought a good point for discussion and that's what I was all about. Do not attempt to discredit who I am because I don't know for the other dudes on this forum but I so fucking know who I am I don't have to ask myself the question anymore.

I have chosen this article because of the relation from the Romans versus the emergence of monogamy knowing far well from history that Romans were all the way monogamous with their wife (marital duty) and on the side fucking with dudes for pleasure (if you can bring the opposite of that, please go on bring it). Religion, yes was not the initiator of monogamy... but lets go a little years away... let's say approximately 600 years ago, have you ever read about the dark ages of the roman catholic church where they force their laws into couples... attacking woman form being unfaithful? As a feminist you should definitely know that (well sorry for assuming that you are feminist, but on an article of about 12 paragraphs that's the part that interested you... so I'd say you have great interest in the feminist movement) But I digress, 600 years ago 14th century, the Clergy was looking into a new way of making money (that was well about 2 centuries after the very beginning of the witch hunt) now that they had burn pretty much every "wannabe" sorcerer & witches they could burn they started to introduce themselves into marital couples... therefore attacking the woman (of course) for infidelity and polygamy, (the husband will quite often act as an innocent, since because of the temptation of Eve, woman have been seen as agent of evil and deception by whom ? (The Clergy) and that is how they started to enforce monogamy... so yes monogamy excited before I so agree with all of you... but saying that religion or the church as nothing to do with today's concept of monogamy it's really blindness (In my personal opinion) but also historically speaking. And why have I have chosen and altered this article... it's because it goes into the very roots of it.
 
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777

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It's called plagiarism, I believe, to post other people's text without crediting them. You could have provided the link alongside the text. The text being someone else's explains the oddities there is, you cutting away bits and pieces.

The text certainly was making odd connections between feminism and other things.

Alas, feminism has in recent years changed partner, now courting what I call Homogamy, which is homosexuality and lesbianism, relentlessly fighting for its legalization. Monogamy is fast becoming out of date. The passing fad seems quick to come and fast to go, and the poor church is presently being dragged into Homogamy.

She had compromised once, why not twice? Thus the Church did not just commit spiritual adultery, but also spiritual lesbianism with Jezebel. Thus we see another logical trend. The more feminism is in power in a land, the more monogamous it is and the more it is swept over by homosexuality and lesbianism. The more patriarchal and polygamous the land, the least likely it is to be taken over by homosexuality and lesbianism.

The kind of thing you described about middle ages has been typical in all cultures where women's sexuality was controlled by men. It can be called female monogamy, but polygyny as a whole and that what the writer of that article seems have been looking up to, as a Biblical or something. If you want a bit more reliable source for what the Roman times were, I'd refer you to Eva Cantarella's works.

I certainly believe that religion has a lot to do with the concept of the so called monogamy, but as a part of the rest of the culture, and not without it being beneficial for the society (or patriarchy, be as it may).
 
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SimplyJakeAndAlex

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It's called plagiarism, I believe, to post other people's text without crediting them. You could have provided the link alongside the text. The text being someone else's explains the oddities there is, you cutting away bits and pieces.

The text certainly was making odd connections between feminism and other things.



The kind of thing you described about middle ages has been typical in all cultures where women's sexuality was controlled by men. It can be called female monogamy, but polygyny as a whole and that what the writer of that article seems have been looking up to, as a Biblical or something. If you want a bit more reliable source for what the Roman times were, I'd refer you to Eva Cantarella's works.

I certainly believe that religion has a lot to do with the concept of the so called monogamy, but as a part of the rest of the culture, and not without it being beneficial for the society (or patriarchy, be as it may).
Call it what you like... plagiarism is when you don't post the bibliography and maker it sound as it was yours... didn't do that... try not to be too insulting when somebody question you ... (and that wasn't a question to you directly... did you enjoy speaking of it? Did you enjoy writing of it and share your ideas? If so i'd suggest you to stop pointing finger and just enjoy and go with the proper decorum of a good discussion... try not to be so right all the time because where you believe to be there will always be someone to question you. Always no matter what and I'd suggest you to calm down before replying to a thread and this will make it more enjoyable for others to read. If that offended you in any ways come and speak to me in private but don't try to put me down on public because I see this activity I do on GH as entertainment. Nothing less nothing more I suggest you to finally get the concept and calm down.
 

777

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Call it what you like... plagiarism is when you don't post the bibliography and maker it sound as it was yours... didn't do that... try not to be too insulting when somebody question you ... (and that wasn't a question to you directly... did you enjoy speaking of it? Did you enjoy writing of it and share your ideas? If so i'd suggest you to stop pointing finger and just enjoy and go with the proper decorum of a good discussion... try not to be so right all the time because where you believe to be there will always be someone to question you. Always no matter what and I'd suggest you to calm down before replying to a thread and this will make it more enjoyable for others to read. If that offended you in any ways come and speak to me in private but don't try to put me down on public because I see this activity I do on GH as entertainment. Nothing less nothing more I suggest you to finally get the concept and calm down.

I can only say the same to you, try not to be insulting and go with the proper decorum, and for heaven's sake calm down... It will make it more enjoyable for others to read.

You didn't point it out anywhere that the text is not yours, btw.

ETA: You constantly demand for resources but didn't mention this? Bad form. I didn't try to put you down any more than you keep doing to others... You were making a point about writing a study.

Oh, and I did find it entertaining, thank you! (And btw, thank you for making the post less insulting too.)
 
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SimplyJakeAndAlex

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I can only say the same to you, try not to be insulting and go with the proper decorum, and for heaven's sake calm down... It will make it more enjoyable for others to read.

You didn't point it out anywhere that the text is not yours, btw.

ETA: You constantly demand for resources but didn't mention this? Bad form. I didn't try to put you down any more than you keep doing to others... You were making a point about writing a study.

Oh, and I did find it entertaining, thank you! (And btw, thank you for making the post less insulting too.)
I hope you'll be done with your bickering soon... this is entertainment... beside this I have a real life I hope you do too and stop it already it's getting old.

You can so much point of things I didn't do versus the things I did. But there's a break point where you have to learn to let it go, you're not winning anything here. And that bickering and back and forth attack is quite enough playing so brace it or shush it. There's many other posts in here that I did which are not articles picked from colleagues or other so stop being personally hurt and move on it. Being full of shit, as you may believe I am also apply to people who try to tone down everyone because they can't accept being criticize. This was my last word on the subject, feel free to respond (as I know you can't stand to not have the last word) but I won't read any of it. I am done. Have a great day, evening, night wherever you come from.:cheers:
 
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