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Madness In Russia... Please Take A Stand Now!

bigsal

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I support activism but...

...somehow I don't think people in the embassy or Russian government will care about this.

Painting rainbows - nice self-promotion, but it will change nothing for gay people in Russia!

The real change must always come from within society, not be forced from outside!

If your car has broken down, sometimes you need a push from the outside.

Forgive my childish metaphor, but the Western states Democrats, if they want, they can do a lot. But unfortunately the economic interests are more important than people.
 

MrMonkey

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If your car has broken down, sometimes you need a push from the outside.

Forgive my childish metaphor, but the Western states Democrats, if they want, they can do a lot. But unfortunately the economic interests are more important than people.

Russia is not a small country that you can play childish games with, my friend.

They are a power. And they don't care. Ask Georgia what it means to have dealings with Russia.
 

bigsal

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Russia is not a small country that you can play childish games with, my friend.

They are a power. And they don't care. Ask Georgia what it means to have dealings with Russia.

All the more reason to feel dissent from the outside.

"verb volant" Words fly. At least gays oppressed in Russia can hear them.

Perhaps it will come to nothing, but it is always a statement of solidarity.
 
S

Sinnerr

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I support activism but...

...somehow I don't think people in the embassy or Russian government will care about this.

Painting rainbows - nice self-promotion, but it will change nothing for gay people in Russia!

The real change must always come from within society, not be forced from outside!

It's better than nothing. Well, it's clear that democracy and liberal values can't be dictated from the outside. But it's good to bother those who have power and are fine with current situation - and Russian diplomats are Putin's guys.

It's sci-fi imagination that something will come from within society now, if it haven't come in past 15 years.

Here is very interesting article:
http://anonym.to/?http://www.huffin...n-russia_b_3735143.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices
 

MrMonkey

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It's sci-fi imagination that something will come from within society now, if it haven't come in past 15 years.

It takes time for some things. They say that Rome wasn't built in a day.

Evolution is always better then revolution.
 
S

Sinnerr

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It takes time for some things. They say that Rome wasn't built in a day.

Evolution is always better then revolution.

Ehm. yeah it seems to be logical and very nice phrase as well. But in situation when goverment persecute open gay people, gay activists it's pretty impossible. If they can't talk about it, how society can get true informations? Even if homosexuals are demonized by church, media etc...

Evolution process can't start before there will be freedom of speech and freedom of assembly for everybody.

There is no country in the world where equal rights for gays would just appeard from nowhere. Well somewhere it could be easier somewhere harder but Everywhere have must been someone who told "we're here and we deserve same rights as anybody else". But in Russia (and not only Russia of course) this is not possible.- And thats what is going on (to me at least)
 
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MrMonkey

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Ehm. yeah it seems to be logical and very nice phrase as well. But in situation when goverment persecute open gay people, gay activists it's pretty impossible. If they can't talk about it, how society can get true informations? Even if homosexuals are demonized by church, media etc...

Majority of Russian people have a negative opinion about gays. That won't change over night. Unless u propose brain washing or something similar? It takes time! It took so called democratic countries like USA and others decades! Big shifts in gay rights in Europe happened recenty, and you expect Russia to do it over night? That doesn't work that way!

Besides, you have Putin and powerful Russian Orthodox Church... that will take a looooooooooooooong time for anything to change.

Evolution process can't start before there will be freedom of speech and freedom of assembly for everybody.

Unfortunately this is a real world, and some other more powerful interests prevail "freedom of speech" thing.

There is no country in the world where equal rights for gays would just appeard from nowhere. Well somewhere it could be easier somewhere harder but Everywhere have must been someone who told "we're here and we deserve right same as anybody else". But in Russia (and not only Russia of course) this is not possible.- And thats what is going on (to me at least)

So painting rainbows will help? Do you know how diplomacy is run in the world? The only thing that's important is who has a bigger gun inside their pants... :) sounds funny, but unfortunately it's true.

Bottom line: it takes time, it will not happen over night, and IT WILL NOT COME EASY without some sacrifice! It was the same everywhere, so it will be in Russia as well.

I support gay people all around the world, but they have to see what's the best solution for them depending on their country's situation! In one country it's enough to paint rainbows, other countries demand more longer fight!

Anyway I don't have anythong smart to add to this, so this one is closed for me. :)
 

Tjerk12

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I think we should boycott the Olympic Winter Games in Russia. There is a lot of discussion about a boycott in The Netherlands. Most politicians say that they can put more pressure on Putin by not boycotting, but stay on speaking terms, but I disagree with that. They should have boycotted the Olympic Games in 1936 in Nazi Germany; they should have boycotted the World Soccer Championship in Argentina in 1978, during the dictatorship of the Generals. Politics achieved nothing by their approach.
 

gb2000ie

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I support activism but...

...somehow I don't think people in the embassy or Russian government will care about this.

Painting rainbows - nice self-promotion, but it will change nothing for gay people in Russia!

The real change must always come from within society, not be forced from outside!

It keeps the plight of our Russian brothers in our public discourse and keeps the pressure on our politicians to keep the pressure on the Russians. This kind of protest is a very important part of the fight.

B.
 

bigsal

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The theme of this thread is very interesting, as should be any constructive discussion.

Dear MrMonkey your arguments are more than correct and irrefutable. No denying the sad political and cultural situation that reigns in Russia. But need to start somewhere at to pickaxe this wall surrounding the unfortunate Russian gay.

You and I live in two historically fascist country, been allies during the war with the Third Reich. therefore, far from the reality of other Western countries.

Until a few years ago in Italy was almost impossible to speak of social rights to the LGBT community, in which the opione public was strongly opposed to gay unions(mind you, I speak of sun unions).
In recent years, forced to do the voice, this community, thanks to the web, bought visibility and even most citizens seem to have become aware that there is a minority so far kept hidden, marginalized and subjected to harassment and violence.
The last reliable survey, carried out in a neutral way, gave a surprising result, even 57 percent of respondents, is in favor of gay marriage, not unions gay, but as I said, marriage, this despite stiff and strong opposition from the Vatican.

So you see, to make their voices heard, can serve to awaken the consciences of open minds.

I am also pessimistic of positive results in the short term in Russia, but you have to start somewhere.

I think this is a good opportunity to do so.
 
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Tjerk12

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It keeps the plight of our Russian brothers in our public discourse and keeps the pressure on our politicians to keep the pressure on the Russians. This kind of protest is a very important part of the fight.

B.

Do not agree with that. Diplomacy is good, always, but sometimes there are limits. Putin behaves as a brutal barbarian. We should not tolerate that. Boycott the games. People will start to ask questions why.
 

tonka

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Governments under pressure have long used nationalistic feelings to stay in power. It's a very effective trick. One reason I don't want the games boycotted is that it plays into that. The West and their gay allies are pushing Mother Russia around.

I'm all for agitating. I really like the rainbow crosswalk. I hope some athletes and tourist do get arrested at the games. Such international incidents are good for the cause.

I'm also not so sure that it will take a long time for change to come. It's getting harder and harder for a country like Russia to wall off itself. Russian people will see the results of other countries integrating gays into their societies. The world will see any actions the Russian government takes on this. Condemn, agitate, but engage.
 
S

Sinnerr

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Better than boycott will be to beat Russians in Ice-hockey :D idally in final. :devil:
But current pressure is good too. :devil: Imagination of ussually stressfree Putin's guys being fucking nervous about what wiil happen makes me laught so hard.:devil:
 

topdog

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The lesson I learned in 1980 is that boycotts punish the athletes and only make the you look petty and whiney. A boycott is the last resort of the powerless.

I agree with Andrew Sullivan`s idea: go to Sochi and then peacefully and deliberately celebrate the gay. Very Gahndi. I want to see thousands of athletes from every nation March into the stadium waving rainbow flags. Lots of public displays of affection.

Be a role model for young gay Russians to let them know that the repressive way they are forced to live is not normal.
 

ihno

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I'm all for agitating. I really like the rainbow crosswalk.

Yes, it's an excellent thing to draw attention to the anti-gay-policy. It's not very effortful but makes a lasting impression. It makes international news too. So far two major newspapers have reported about it in Germany as well as about a Kiss-In before the Russian Embassy in Antwerpen.

It will be the responsibility of the gay/lesbian community to take care that law (or better: the way it is handled) is not forgotten by the world but stays on the Agenda. Others will only care for a while and then just shrug with the shoulders. Well, some do already...

I hope some athletes and tourist do get arrested at the games. Such international incidents are good for the cause.

4 Foreigners from the Netherlands have been arrested already. They were Sociologists who joined a seminar about the persecution of gays.
http://anonym.to/http://www.policym...d-for-even-talking-about-gay-rights-in-russia

I would not like to be one of those and as a gay man I would not go there and cannot suggest this as a form of protest.

There is a german politician btw., Volker Beck, who had participated in Pride-Parades in Moscow in the recent years and literally got a bloddy nose.
 
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topdog

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I'm not expecting for the IOC to do anything.

The rainbow flags idea is an individual choice by each athlete.

I think that this is already moving beyond being a "gay" issue. The Russian laws are so ridiculously over-the-top that straight athletes are uncomfortable with the situation. This is a tipping point.

I've often said that the biggest ally of gay rights in the US is the Westboro Baptist Church. They make conservatives want to stand with the gays against WBC wackos. (Your average conservative doesn't want to be seen as being on their side.)

Putin's anti-gay laws are splitting the conservative community the same way, and it's motivating moderates to want to take a stand against it.

This isn't going to be about any official government or Olympic committee response. This is going to be individuals wanting to close ranks around their gay teammates.
 

ihno

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I'm not expecting for the IOC to do anything.

The rainbow flags idea is an individual choice by each athlete.

Yes, they can do something: ban you from the games. If the article I linked above is right, they consider waving a flag as a political statement and can ban you according to Rule 50. (# 36)

I think that this is already moving beyond being a "gay" issue. The Russian laws are so ridiculously over-the-top that straight athletes are uncomfortable with the situation. This is a tipping point.

Yes, I also think that Putin sees this all as a means to maintain his power.
 

gb2000ie

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Do not agree with that. Diplomacy is good, always, but sometimes there are limits. Putin behaves as a brutal barbarian. We should not tolerate that. Boycott the games. People will start to ask questions why.

I am not saying NOT to boycott the games. I am saying to do that AND to keep doing things like the rainbow crossing AS WELL.

This is not a zero-sum game, and I really wish people would stop pretending it was.

B.
 

tonka

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What happened with the ancient games in Greece? Sometimes city- states would be at war. They would halt the war and have the games!

If we can't act in the same spirit, why does the IOC award Russia the games? The West boycotted the last Russian games. (It had no effect in Afghanistan). Now Russia has a another games, and we boycott again? That will move Russia toward a more open, tolerant society? Of course not.

Going to the games gets us in. I have real faith in the athletes. Some won't support gay rights. Some will be annoyed that an issue has distracted from their moment in the winter sun. But many of them are thoughtful, intense people. This is their moment. Many of them will use that moment to do the right thing (and make themselves famous). Let's give them that chance.
 
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