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Classical music [Youtube Clips]

B

bafm

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Back to the romanticism :D

being a huge fan of la Divina Maria Callas I have to post this clip, studio version (1953) from La Traviata (Giuseppe Verdi)


VIOLETTA (sola)
È strano! È strano! In core
scolpiti ho quegli accenti!
Saria per me sventura un serio amore?
Che risolvi, o turbata anima mia?
Null'uomo ancora t'accendeva -- O gioia
ch'io non conobbi, esser amata amando!
E sdegnarla poss'io
per l'aride follie del viver mio?
Ah, fors'è lui che l'anima
solinga ne' tumulti
godea sovente pingere
de' suoi colori occulti!
Lui che modesto e vigile
all'egre soglie ascese,
e nuova febbre accese,
destandomi all'amor.
A quell'amor ch'è palpito
dell'universo intero,
misterioso, altero,
croce e delizia al cor!
Follie! follie! Delirio vano è questo!
Povera donna, sola,
abbandonata in questo
popoloso deserto
che appellano Parigi.
Che spero or più?
Che far degg'io? Gioire,
di voluttà ne' vortici perir.
Gioir, gioir!
Sempre libera degg'io
folleggiare di gioia in gioia,
vo' che scorra il viver mio
pei sentieri del piacer.
Nasca il giorno, o il giorno muoia,
sempre lieta ne' ritrovi,
a diletti sempre nuovi
dee volare il mio pensier.
ALFREDO (sotto al balcone)
Amore, amor è palpito...
VIOLETTA
Oh!
ALFREDO
...dell'universo intero --
VIOLETTA
Oh amore.
ALFREDO
Misterioso, misterioso, altero,
croce, croce e delizia,
croce e delizia, delizia al cor.
VIOLETTA
Follie! follie! Ah sì! Gioir, gioir!
Sempre libera degg'io
folleggiare di gioia in gioia,
vo' che scorra il viver mio
pei sentieri del piacer.
Nasca il giorno, o il giorno muoia,
sempre lieta ne' ritrovi,
a diletti sempre nuovi,
dee volare il mio pensier.
ALFREDO
Amor è palpito
dell'universo --
VIOLETTA
Ah! Dee volar il mio pensier.
Ah! il mio pensier. Il mio pensier.
 

gorgik9

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@ bafm

There´s romanticism and romanticism, and I haven´t any problem whatsoever with the Verdi-Callas-kind-of-romanticism. This is just wonderful.

And since Maria Callas always brings me on the verge of crying - here´s Händel wonderful aria Lascia ch´io pianga.

 

ihno

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Back to Schumann, who btw. has not much to do with Wagner.
Wagner was one of those (afaik), who later ridiculed and minized Schumann and said he wasn't able to write a symphony. This of course had obviously to do with Wagner's own desire to declare the death of the symphony, so he could better promote his own young/new german school (neudeutsche Schule) and his symphonical poem (symphonische Dichtung).

It was most likely Wagner's judgement, that later "allowed" Mahler to rearrange the Schumann symphonies to "save" them.

In the 1850 the Schumanns moved from Leipzig to Dusseldorf, due to work. The new impressions of the Rhine (and the Rhinelanders :D ) can be found in the third symphony, which begings with his most popular piece, a musical depiction of the Rhine.

 

gorgik9

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@ ihno

First of all, I just want to say that I have no intention to start some kind of ugly quarrel and that I think that the friendly tone is one of the big assets of GH.

But when you say (post 68) that Schumann "has not much to do with Wagner", I´m afraid things were a bit more complicated...

You told (in post 60) that Schumann was a very influential editor of Neue Zeitschrift für Musik.( This important journal actually was founded by Schumann in 1834.) Here´s the painful and sad thing - in 1850 Neue Zeitschrift für Musik published - in two parts in two consecutive editions - a long essay called Das Judentum in der Musik, written by the pseudonym "K. Freigedank", and hidden behind that phony name was none less than - Richard Wagner.

Now, I´m not saying that Schumann wrote this one of the most violently antisemitic documents of the nineteenth century - that´s obviously not the case.

But he was the editor responsible for publishing what Herr K. Freigedank - Wagner - had written.

And that is bad enough.



These things are so painfull and sad. I´ll have to post some music.

 

ihno

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@ ihno

First of all, I just want to say that I have no intention to start some kind of ugly quarrel and that I think that the friendly tone is one of the big assets of GH.

I'm happy to see you commenting. :) We share the wish to have a friendly conversation. I also appreciate the new things you showed me about Schubert and hope for more.

But when you say (post 68) that Schumann "has not much to do with Wagner", I´m afraid things were a bit more complicated...

When you said "you're not the Wagner-type of guy" I merely wanted to point out that there is a difference between the music of Wagner and Schumann. Schumann's music is not "wagnerian", esp. since afaik most "Wagnerian" ideas came up after Schumann was dead. Since I’m not too fond of Wagner myself, I would have to check for the details. Anyway, I think Schumann obviously fits better to Brahms, even though this is kind of unhistorical. Schumann was dead when the big fights began.

You are correct that Schumann and Wagner exchanged letters about politics and music and had contact. I don't know how close they were at all. Wagner was a person, who utilized people. He used Meyerbeer and there is the thesis that the anti-Semitism he developed has lots to do with his attempt to distance himself from that French composer of jewish heritage (and that he was angry that Mendelssohn didn’t answer to his fondness). It would be interesting to know, how much contact remained after 1844, when Schumann gave up the Neue Zeitschrift für Musik.

I also don't know how anti-Judaistic Schumann was (the modern anti-Semitism of which the "Judenthum" became a basis was a phenomenon that came up later in the 1870/80s) and what he thought and said about that article. He was open to the democratic movement and the Revolution of 1848 and was very disappointed when it failed.

Concerning their music, there were many differences and you can find some minor hostilities. On the one hand it's said that Schumann admired Wagner's music, but there was criticism as well. Schumann f.e. wrote to Wagner, that the Flying Dutchman would taste a bit like Meyerbeer here and there, which made Wagner furious.

Wagner himself later wrote that Schumann's talents were sharply limited and that he had a talent for songs but not for for works of a larger scale. I think Wagner was talking about Schumann's symphonies here (of course Wagner thought little about many people and artists, and claimed they were limited in comparision to his own greatness etc. pp.).

(…) Now, I´m not saying that Schumann wrote this one of the most violently antisemitic documents of the nineteenth century - that´s obviously not the case.
But he was the editor responsible for publishing what Herr K. Freigedank - Wagner - had written.
And that is bad enough.

As mentioned before, in 1844 the paper got a new publisher, when Schumann wanted to concentrate on being a composer and moved to Dresden. It was then sold to Franz Brendel. Brendel is responsible for publishing the "Judenthum". It was under him that the paper came supportive of Wagner and Liszt.
When the Judenthum was published in 1850, Schumann lived in Dusseldorf or was moving there. He was not responsible of the paper any more.
 
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gorgik9

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@ ihno

Thanks for correcting me ! I was hasty and thought that Schumann was still on the editorial board in 1850 - but he wasn´t.

But concerning Wagner, it seems to me your perspective is much too limited. It seems to me you think ONLY about the composer and musician. But remember the old saying - there are more books and articles written about Richard Wagner than about anybody else, next to Jesus Christ and Napoleon Bonapart. No other single person in Europe from the 1850s until World War I had such IMMENSE influence on every imaginable branch of culture. Charles Baudelaire was a strong wagnerite and so was Stephane Mallarmé. There were influential wagnerites not at all only in Germany, but also in (among other places) France, England,USA and - Russia!

And young Friedrich Nietzsche started off as the prophet of the great God called Richard Wagner. Nietzsches first important book of his own, Das Geburt der Tragödie (1872 if I remember correctly) was very much a wagnerite book (and I´d say that young Nietzsche had a very heavy crush on RW).

The big quarrels between different groups of german composers and musicians from the mid-1850s on - Wagner,Liszt and Bruckner contra Hanslick,Brahms etc - was the civil war of musical romanticism - different warparties, but fighting on the same turf and with basically the same weapons; or to put it a bit differently : within the same conceptual framework. Within the Classical Music-framework, constructed by (among others) Robert Schumann and Richard Wagner, building upon philosophical foundations from a few earlier thinkers, poets and critics such as JG Herder, Ludwig Tieck and ETA Hoffman.

About the difference between anti-semitism and anti-judaism, I think you make much to much of it. Sure, "modern" anti-semitism is based on "modern" racial biology, while "old fashioned" anti-judaism is at rock bottom a lovely pice (heavy irony here!!!)of cosy christian theology. But the main point of BOTH those discourses are one an the same - the discrimination of jewish people in western society. The difference is a difference in contex and in rhetoric.

There´s so much to talk about here, but right now I´ll have to go out and do some shopping!

But once again thanks for correcting my factual mistake about Schumanns editorship!!!
 

ihno

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@ ihno

I was hasty and thought that Schumann was still on the editorial board in 1850 - but he wasn´t.

That's what a discussion is for. :)

But concerning Wagner, it seems to me your perspective is much too limited. It seems to me you think ONLY about the composer and musician.

That's a misunderstanding. I was talking about Schumann. You wrote "I'm not a Wagnerian" and I just wanted to separate Schumann from Wagner and think that was sufficient. :p
For the following I’m refering to the work of the Social-Historian Jakob Katz here, who did a close analysis of the life of Wagner and the different stages of his anti-Semitism, published in 1985 (maybe it's the work "The Darker Side of Genius: Richard Wagner's Anti-Semitism, published in 2002 in english)". Of course there are always new debates about that. But I don’t follow that debate closely. Katz still is accurate though.
According to Katz Wagner had a “philo-Semite phase”, which ended in 1849 (end of the revolution, flight to Switzerland). Only afterwards he became the anti-Semite we know.
When Schumann and Wagner had contact, Wagner was still in close relation to Meyerbeer. Schumann received a praise from Wagner about the French-jewish composer Fromental Halevy, which was meant to be published. As for Schumann, I would have to do some research and read his letters.

As for composer/political being, that is an interesting aspect you mention here. And again of course a very wide field. :) If I would only listen to the music of composers who were "gay-friendly", I don't know how many cds would be left. Tschaikowsky and Handel all day, thanks… ;)
Back to Wagner: It's possible to draw a line from Hitler to Wagner but not the other way around. That would be an anachronism. Sometimes people ask "Is it allowed to like Wagner?". I see it like Barenboim, who played Wagner in Israel in 2001 for the first time since 1938. Of course you're allowed to.

But remember the old saying - there are more books and articles written about Richard Wagner than about anybody else, next to Jesus Christ and Napoleon Bonapart. No other single person in Europe from the 1850s until World War I had such IMMENSE influence on every imaginable branch of culture. Charles Baudelaire was a strong wagnerite and so was Stephane Mallarmé. There were influential wagnerites not at all only in Germany, but also in (among other places) France, England,USA and - Russia!
There are more books about Wagner than books about Hitler? ;) Yes I know of Wagner's influence, though I’m hesitant to say he might have been the most important person of all. The musical scene of Germany (which includes Austria) influenced the whole world at that time.

The big quarrels between different groups of german composers and musicians from the mid-1850s on - Wagner,Liszt and Bruckner contra Hanslick,Brahms etc - was the civil war of musical romanticism - different warparties, but fighting on the same turf and with basically the same weapons; or to put it a bit differently : within the same conceptual framework. Within the Classical Music-framework, constructed by (among others) Robert Schumann and Richard Wagner, building upon philosophical foundations from a few earlier thinkers, poets and critics such as JG Herder, Ludwig Tieck and ETA Hoffman.

And Schopenhauer…
Well, there were always economical interests in those quarrels too. When Wagner declared the symphony dead he didn't just have ideas about art in mind, no, he also wanted to promote his own works and kick Brahms’ fat(?) ass. Brahms btw. was the leading figure of the academics but never really participated. He just allowed to his name to be used but kept out of it.
Schumann anyway was long dead at this point. I think he was indifferent to all of this. For his fourth symphony he considered to have the title of a “Symphonistische Phantasie” (symphonistic/symphonic fantasy) but then didn’t do that.

About the difference between anti-semitism and anti-judaism, I think you make much to much of it. Sure, "modern" anti-semitism is based on "modern" racial biology, while "old fashioned" anti-judaism is at rock bottom a lovely pice (heavy irony here!!!)of cosy christian theology. But the main point of BOTH those discourses are one an the same - the discrimination of jewish people in western society. The difference is a difference in contex and in rhetoric.

No, this is important. The historical science knows four kinds of hostilities against jews: Anti-Judaism, Anti-Semitism, Anti-Zionism and a fourth form that claims that today's jew would benefit from the Holocaust. There are big and major differences between each of them and they can mix in all kind of different forms.

Simply put: For the anti-Judaists, jews are a religious community. For the anti-Judaists Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy was a german christian, for the anti-Semists he was a jew.

Jews that lived in an anti-Judaistic society could still have a baptism, become christian and live on their lifes without discrimination (more or less). Many german jews decided to go that way.

Actually there were many different discussions in Germany between 1780 and 1870 about that question. In summary: Some reformers like Christian Wilhelm Dohm (Age of Enlightenment) promoted the "Assmiliation" of the jewish communities in Germany, which meant nothing else but to turn the jews into german christians. Ironically "friends" like Dohm and enemies of the jews agreed in this point: Jews have to become germans, they have to assimilate. And they couldn't understand how some jews could refuse this "grateful offer".

The racial anti-Semitism on the other hand, that came up in Austria and Germany in the 1870s and 1880s didn't offer an escape from discrimination any more. It came up in a time, when the church lost its influence. The modern anti-Semitism was a reaction to the Emancipation in many german countries, it evolved from Anti-Judaism but not without a major change in quality.

The significance of Wagner's "Judenthum" now is that he was one of the first to use this new different kind of hostility. You see him directly at the turning point from the anti-Judaism to the early forms of modern anti-Semitism.
You see that clearly in the beginning of the article, when Wagner says that the emancipation / assimilation was somehow a good thing but won't work. So he directly refused the idea that being jewish is just being a part of a religious community but something you find in the character of the person.

So when Hitler came to power and in 1935 with the Nürnberger Reichsbürgergesetze (Nuremberg Laws) many Germans were surprised that they suddenly were considered to be jews and had to face discrimination and persecution. Those were the descendens of Jews who became Christians at some point and who thought, that according to the anti-Judaism, they could live an life in equality.

But once again thanks for correcting my factual mistake about Schumanns editorship!!!

Always again... :p You're just trying to prevent me from posting more about Schumann anyway... :p

edit: I hope I can make myself clear, english is obviously not my mother-tongue.
 
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ihno

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Oh, now for some music too... :D

 

ihno

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Hey guys, don't let me and gorgik stop you from posting pieces here!!! :p

Back to Schumann for those, who like :p

I don't know if you've ever been to Cologne in Jirmeny and have seen the cathedral there, which is rather impressive. You can also see some beautiful ancient chickenbones there (which are considered to be remanants of the Three holy Kings).

It's one of the biggest gothic cathedrals in the world and it took several hundreds years to build it (not considering that it'll be never finished). At the end of the middle ages it was half finished and people just stopped, so over 300 years there was this half finished dome with the crane on top as the highest point of the city.

NGqEf.jpg


After an old plan of the Dome was being found, in the 19.th century the citizens of Cologne decided to finish it and sucessfully declared it a "national effort". Several factors came together: the reaction to Napoleon, the political suppression of the Congress of Vienna, the new but not yet aggressive nationalism and early romantic moods. And finally the attempt of the protestant Prussian King to connect to the catholic Rhinelanders. It took yet another 60 years to be completed.

Schumann wrote an acustical walk through the dome in the fourth movement of his third symphony:

 

gorgik9

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Yeah, so to make sure that we don´t get you to feel excluded, ihno and me decided we should retract from the long and hairy discussion on anti-semitism, Wagner,Nietzsche etc etc we started some days ago, since it was threatening to develop into a very long series of academic seminars; I know that me and ihno are very much into that kind of fetish, but I really don´t know how many of all you others are... :p:blushing:

If you go through the western parts of "Jirmany" by train -let´s say from Hamburg to Frankfurt - chanses are big you´ll have a stop or change of trains at Hauptbahnhof Köln = Central Station Cologne.

Since the Hauptbahnhof is almost fused with the big gothic cathedral - I said almost - you´ve got a great opportunity to get a good look at this magnificent medieval church even if you haven´t got more than an hour or so.
 
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XMan101

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Perhaps we should start a new thread called "conversations in classical music" :p

The problems with getting too deep in a topic between 2 people is that nobody feels they want to interrupt, but it's great to see passions explored ;)

Why not continue for all those interested in a new thread, and the cathedral in Koln is on my list of places to visit in Deutchland, which is a wonderful country I'm gradually starting to explore.
 

ihno

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All I wanted was to write four posts with each four lines about the four symphonies of Schumann. ;P

I just like to add some anekdote and a little bit of background to the piece I post, some more serious, some less so... :D

 

creslinwest

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Final movement from Symphony no. 3 in D minor by Gustav Mahler




This is my favourite piece of music at the moment. If you have a spare 28 minutes to listen be my guest, then if you have a spare hour and a half find the whole symphony and listen to the whole thing. (It's on youtube in a single video when did they start allowing such long videos?)

The choir I sing in performed Mahler Sympony no. 2 with the Hamburg Symphony Orchestra recently and our director said something along the lines of Mahler's symphonies being like universes painted in sound.
 
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XMan101

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Mahler's symphonies being like universes painted in sound.

Perfect description! When I was still quite young my Dad didn't like Mahler and told me more or less I wouldn't like his works, avoid them :)) , so being the rebel I am I made sure to listen :p Loved him ever since!
 

ihno

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My parents didn't care about Mahler, so I still don't know all of his symphonies :D , love the first and the second though. Cannot understand the hype about the Adiagetto of the fifth.
 

peter123

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Mahler's symphonies being like universes painted in sound.

Perfect description! When I was still quite young my Dad didn't like Mahler and told me more or less I wouldn't like his works, avoid them :)) , so being the rebel I am I made sure to listen :p Loved him ever since!

a bit off topic by me, but....
..... that often happens to things that are considered as unpopular or fobidden: mostly the opposite happens:rofl:, same figuratively with my parents :rofl:,
as contrary to my brother I was always the rebel too.........:thinking:
 
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