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Most Gays Are Spiritual

gtsrulez

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No, I am not a creationist. Are you?

Watch this:

http://fora.tv/2008/05/24/John_Gray_in_Conversation

I will when I have the time.

Grey makes the point that secular humanism (he does mention Dawkins) refutes the content of Christianity (and religion in general) but retains its thought processes:
-Dawkins makes the point that "we alone have the ability..." to defy our genes etc., in effect, we are special. But where does this specialness come from?
-Dawkins offers his own eschatology. Have you read Unweaving the Rainbow? Well, to me, it is as if Dawkins has set about weaving his own rainbow.

Dawkins is stating the obvious in completely naturalistic terms. There's no similarity with religious thought processes. Setting goals and wishing for a certain future is not eschatology. I still don't understand what exactly it is you support and why the obsession with Dawkins.

So, what some take from the new eschatology, and the new religion (humanism) is the belief that humanity can be so much more than it is --science and technology offer the grand potential of a utopian society, where all realise the infallibility of the scientific method (world view) and conflict becomes a thing of the past?

Everyone has a vision for the future and works for it. I don't see how humanism is eschatological, and what exactly your problem is.

Grey also makes the point (cf. Schopenhauer) that a multiplicity of conflicting desires, are an intrinsic part of the reality of human existence --good vs. bad, them vs. us is an illusion (think 'NeoDarwinians' vs. 'Creationists')... instead we choose between 'goods', between 'bads' etc. So as Kissinger (!) would have it, great men must choose between evils...

Sorry, the above is irrelevant, relativistic nonsense. The harm caused by creationists in education is not an illusion.

Politically, the Discovery Institute is in bed with the Israeli Lobby, and with the Neoconservatives. Ideologically, Dawkins presents a kind of secondary add-on to Neoconservatism. It other words, both sides are being played within the theatre that is the ever-changing/transitioning public sphere (again, call me a relativist!). And yes, the political world really is that complicated!

I don't really know what to respond to such nonsense. This looks like pretending to be an intellectual simply by dismissing both sides of an argument as being the same. Being played? By whom? Again, I don't know what you believe exactly but it sounds like a conspiracy theory.

I've read Dawkins, McGrath, Grey, Dennett, Blackmore and all the rest. Why don't you do the same? What are you so worried about? Please consider that the real world is not a wrestling match, there are always shades of grey... and there in lies the 'truth' of the matter.
:bring it on:

Worried? I'm not the one desperately trying to discredit a popular author by spreading common creationist lies. What are you so worried about?
Some issues are black and white, like the existence of god, if that's what you had in mind. There aren't ALWAYS shades of grey.
 

gtsrulez

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What are the counter-positions? You don't even have a position; you just attack naturalism without offering any justification or alternative world view. Just by calling naturalism as "pop science of darwinism", you think you make some sophisticated argument. Well, you have to do better than that.

The facts are :
1. All life has evolved and shares a common ancestor. Biology, geology and several other scientific fields testify to this.
2. The mind is a product of the brain. Neurology and neuropsychology would not exist without recognition of this fact.
3. Ethics is partly innate (at the basic level of altruism and reciprocity necessary for social survival) and partly a convention and product of cultural evolution. The fact of the observed ethical behavior of animals and the moral progress of society (abolition of slavery, sexual revolution, rights for women, blacks and gays) testify to this also.

These are the main points of a naturalistic and atheistic world view. You haven't argued (not successfully anyway) against them, or proposed anything that isn't vague or unclear. After several posts, I think you have a pretty good idea of what my beliefs are; I still have no idea what you believe or what exactly you find lacking in my own. You said you are not a creationist, yet you are happy to use creationist lies against Dawkins. Why?
 
T

Thor

Guest
hahahaha, I wonder if we were in a pub, and having a beer where this would this go? lol
 

gtsrulez

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hahahaha, I wonder if we were in a pub, and having a beer where this would this go? lol

I don't think this topic would come up in any pub with hot boys in it :p


Integritas, even your last post is full of fallacies and falsehoods.
Have you even read The Selfish Gene, apart from its title? Did you know it explains how altruism can develop exactly because it helps spread the "selfish" genes in a population?

I didn't say the abolition of slavery had anything to do with Darwin. But it was the product of a moral progress that happened despite the resistance of religious morality based on the supernatural.

As for the "eugenics movements", their link to Darwin probably exists only in the minds of creationists or people with similar intellectual deficiencies. Such movements existed way before Darwin, you can read the Old Testament about how God commands and performs them through ethnic cleansing and genocide. Eugenics is what a farmer does with selective breeding so that he gets the best qualities of his animals in the next generation. Darwin simply observed that nature and the environment do the same; his theory is completely unnecessary for anyone wanting to apply eugenics to humans. It is descriptive, not prescriptive.

Thank you for the debate and the learning wishes. Just keep in mind that learning also means admitting that some things we already learned are wrong. I made many objections, counter-questions and corrections to what you have said, but you addressed none of them. Is this really what it means to be "balanced"?
 

explrrrs

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I have a background in statistics and economics, I'd like to see the questions they asked. I can say with authority that twisting answers to meet your needs or what you want to say can be done very easily, I did it for well, a few years.
 
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