Straights writing gay ficton

bijou · Jul 26, 2011

There a lot of M/M novels out there that are written by straight women—many married with children. As far as I can tell, most of these are e-books, but there are also print books too.
I was wondering what those who have read these M/M books feel about straight women writing gay stories. How do they stack up with the men?

Also, aside from freedom of expression rights, how do you feel about straights writing gay fiction?

wildchild · Jul 26, 2011

bijou said:
There a lot of M/M novels out there that are written by straight women—many married with children. As far as I can tell, most of these are e-books, but there are also print books too.
I was wondering what those who have read these M/M books feel about straight women writing gay stories. How do they stack up with the men?

Also, aside from freedom of expression rights, how do you feel about straights writing gay fiction?

Sexuality is such a funny thing - I'm like totally gay

(you can tell by that sentence alone) but love straight porn. Some lesbians love gay male porn and a lot of straight women love gay male porn too.

I've read like manga (comic's equivalent) and those stories are really really good. I've read novels by straight women and they're just as good as the men's - but I haven't really read sex smut and shit by straight women about gay men so can't comment on that.

I think they can attempt to gay fiction but at the end of the day, they are probably writing it from an outsider attempting to look through the eyes of a gay man.

Whisper · Jul 26, 2011

poison824 said:
I think they can attempt to gay fiction but at the end of the day, they are probably writing it from an outsider attempting to look through the eyes of a gay man.

First, I'm not trying to accuse/be hostile or anything, I'm honestly just asking, well, for more information

Are you saying that to be able to write something believable and good, you have to be the same as the stuff you're writing? Of course the personal experiences are the most valuable source where to start, but still I keep wondering. Gays can only write gay fiction and straight can only write straight fiction :? ->this is one of the biggest reasons that I haven't had the courage to put any of my writings here -> yep, straight woman.

XMan101 · Jul 26, 2011

So all authors are completely hetero unless they're writing gay fiction ?

All actors playing straight guys (Rock Hudson!) are straight ?

Both leads in Brokeback Mountain are gay ?

The writer of the original story is ........ Annie Proulx !!! A woman. noooooooooo

A lot of "slash" fiction is written by women too. Maybe they just have a more erotic imagination

wildchild · Jul 26, 2011

whisper said:
First, I'm not trying to accuse/be hostile or anything, I'm honestly just asking, well, for more information
Are you saying that to be able to write something believable and good, you have to be the same as the stuff you're writing? Of course the personal experiences are the most valuable source where to start, but still I keep wondering. Gays can only write gay fiction and straight can only write straight fiction :? ->this is one of the biggest reasons that I haven't had the courage to put any of my writings here -> yep, straight woman.

Noooo, definitely not. Like I've said I've read a lot of manga by straight women and by gay men and both are fucking awesome. I've also read a lot gay-themed novels by straight women and gay men and both are soo amazing (Mary Renault's The Charioteer, Poppy Z Brite's Lost Souls, Perry Moore's Hero, Brian Malloy's A Year of Ice, Maria McCann's As Meat Loves Salt - BUT of course nothing compares to Jamie O'Niell's At Swim, Two Boys - I fell in love with the book, emailed him and a year later he replied and I was fucking over the 63 moons of Jupiter; kept the email of course.

I haven't read like erotic novels by either parties in relation to gay erotic so I can't comment.

What this all means is that straight women writers can be as good as the gay guys.

BUT there was this South Park episode that had this message that kind of stuck to me (looool yes south park, I don't think people should disregard it so easily). It was Kyle's dad made a racist joke and the African American kid in school was pissed off. Kyle attempted to say sorry and said 'I understand why you're angry' but the kid was still pissed off and said 'no, you don't understand'. But at the end of the episode Kyle gave up and said you're right, I don't understand, but sorry - and that was the message of the episode. People can try to understand but you don't REALLY know unless you've been through it yourself. And anyone can take it as they see fitting, but South Park is pretty cool and interesting as much as a novel sometimes.

That was what I was thinking when I replied. What my point was straight women can be as good as gay men, manga, novels whatever. And these can be great but even the best one is a woman trying to understand it whereas gay men have been through it, they have a deeper understanding. So yeah

women can definitely write gay fiction and be as good as the men's as I've said, I just think that that extra bit of being through it, being a gay man is a bit more valuable and greater insight. Can people tell the difference, probably not, do people mind, probably not but that's just my view on it

And darling, you definitely should share your material out there - especially if it's featuring gay men because there aren't enough of that stuff around. One of the greatest human experiences is sharing. I've gotten some horrible feedback from my fanfiction initially but a lot of people enjoyed it and that's an amazing feeling

777 · Jul 26, 2011

I think the biggest difference in writing sex is that men often write more about actions, women more about feelings, though I have to say some of the most overflowing insta!love I've read has been from male authors

I can't read straight sex scenes by most male authors at all because the women could be replaced by a blow up doll and there'd be no difference. In gay fiction I like the fact that there's no women to spoil the good moments, meaning I don't start thinking about the sex or the descriptions too much (but let's face it, men are just hotter!).

Some men I've discussed about it with (both straight and gay) have said that they don't like to read that much about emotions, that they would never do something so embarrassing, so it may work the other way around for them. But then some men love reading those same scenes, so in the end I'd say it's about what the person in question likes. Sex acts are easy enough to write if you know how anatomy works (and even if it were fantasy - written and drawn sex is full of endless stamina, very pliable bodies and bigger than huge cocks, especially fiction by men). One of my favourite gay romance writers, Andrew Grey, knows how to write about emotions beautifully (and achingly beautiful sex scenes too) though most of my favourite writers are women. I think that there's more acceptance nowadays for more varied views in what to read and what to write and that's because internet brings it all easily to reach and it's also easier to meet people who like the same things.

hrycavemanlvr · Jul 27, 2011

Varies with who is writing it. Some ladies can write some looooong romance scenes. Other write heavy on the action with the requisite merging of souls for the money shot. I prefer some romance with my action. The gender of the writer is unimportant to me.

What I have never figured out is why some str8 guys read slash fiction too. :rolling eyes: The ones I have talked to in slash forums mentioned that they preferrred not to tell wifey about their online reading habits.

Whisper · Jul 27, 2011

poison824 said:
Noooo, definitely not. Like I've said I've read a lot of manga by straight women and by gay men and both are fucking awesome. I've also read a lot gay-themed novels by straight women and gay men and both are soo amazing (Mary Renault's The Charioteer, Poppy Z Brite's Lost Souls, Perry Moore's Hero, Brian Malloy's A Year of Ice, Maria McCann's As Meat Loves Salt - BUT of course nothing compares to Jamie O'Niell's At Swim, Two Boys - I fell in love with the book, emailed him and a year later he replied and I was fucking over the 63 moons of Jupiter; kept the email of course.

I haven't read like erotic novels by either parties in relation to gay erotic so I can't comment.

What this all means is that straight women writers can be as good as the gay guys.

BUT there was this South Park episode that had this message that kind of stuck to me (looool yes south park, I don't think people should disregard it so easily). It was Kyle's dad made a racist joke and the African American kid in school was pissed off. Kyle attempted to say sorry and said 'I understand why you're angry' but the kid was still pissed off and said 'no, you don't understand'. But at the end of the episode Kyle gave up and said you're right, I don't understand, but sorry - and that was the message of the episode. People can try to understand but you don't REALLY know unless you've been through it yourself. And anyone can take it as they see fitting, but South Park is pretty cool and interesting as much as a novel sometimes.

That was what I was thinking when I replied. What my point was straight women can be as good as gay men, manga, novels whatever. And these can be great but even the best one is a woman trying to understand it whereas gay men have been through it, they have a deeper understanding. So yeah women can definitely write gay fiction and be as good as the men's as I've said, I just think that that extra bit of being through it, being a gay man is a bit more valuable and greater insight. Can people tell the difference, probably not, do people mind, probably not but that's just my view on it

And darling, you definitely should share your material out there - especially if it's featuring gay men because there aren't enough of that stuff around. One of the greatest human experiences is sharing. I've gotten some horrible feedback from my fanfiction initially but a lot of people enjoyed it and that's an amazing feeling

All right, let's see if I get my brain work enough to answer (managed to took a little nap here at the computer

).

Thank you, now I got it what you were saying and yes, I have to agree that who would be a better expert to write gay-themed novel than one who is gay. I'm thinking also men writing about woman's point of view and would it sound convincing to me. How about if I didn't know author's gender?

Oh yes, there is actually lots of wisdom in South Park

About erotic m/m-books, I read them a lot. There are lots of good ones and bad ones, but that is just normal. Personally I prefer m/m than m/f

I just can't help thinking that these erotic books are categorized into the same group with all women's romantic books that are considered as "lesser literature".

And my own works, I have them already in Internet, but in places where basically women/girls write m/m for other females and it shows. I noticed that my writing style started to change when I started to read writings from Nifty. And no, I haven't put my writings there or here, after all here the readers are "the real thing" and that makes me hesitate. But maybe some day...

Hopefully you'll understand what I'm trying to say here (and maybe I should check my replies after I have slept).

777 · Jul 27, 2011

cavemanfkr said:
What I have never figured out is why some str8 guys read slash fiction too. :rolling eyes: The ones I have talked to in slash forums mentioned that they preferrred not to tell wifey about their online reading habits.

I guess they fear about being labelled gay themselves

I have couple male friends who read BL manga, as well as gay romance, and both of them are straight. They're both very comfortable about who and what they are and don't have a problem letting others know they read the stuff either, though I don't think they'd talk about it to anyone who didn't know them, but then again neither would I. Like Poison824 said, sexuality is such a funny thing. Doesn't always work the way one would expect.

Martinus · Jul 27, 2011

Going back a few years Mary Renault wrote some excellent fiction about ancient Greeks with the emphasis on male homosexuality. Don't know about her sexual orientation but she never wrote about women.

777 · Jul 30, 2011

Martinus said:
Going back a few years Mary Renault wrote some excellent fiction about ancient Greeks with the emphasis on male homosexuality. Don't know about her sexual orientation but she never wrote about women.

I read about her out of curiosity, and she was lesbian, though she didn't like being identified by her sexual identity. I've found it interesting in other older generation people too, like Tove Jansson. She too has some interesting gay themes going on in the Moomin books

zortek · Aug 1, 2011

the greatest skill of a good writer is the ability to put themselves and their readers in situations that they have never been in.

as a fan of scifi and fantasy, i doubt any of the writers have experienced travelling at warp speed or riding a dragon, but the best writers are convincing in their depictions.

i downed a package of gay fiction some time ago and was surprised to find most were written by women. to be honest, my first reaction was 'wtf?.. no way these are going to be any good.' but upon reading some i found many to be very good.

best example.. a story about fisting. i have absolutely no interest in the practise and do not find it erotic... however one of the stories is about this and isn't just very readable, but highly erotic as well. (even gave me a hardon)

good writing is good writing, regardless of gender etc etc

gorgik9 · Aug 6, 2011

zortek said:
the greatest skill of a good writer is the ability to put themselves and their readers in situations that they have never been in.

as a fan of scifi and fantasy, i doubt any of the writers have experienced travelling at warp speed or riding a dragon, but the best writers are convincing in their depictions.

i downed a package of gay fiction some time ago and was surprised to find most were written by women. to be honest, my first reaction was 'wtf?.. no way these are going to be any good.' but upon reading some i found many to be very good.

best example.. a story about fisting. i have absolutely no interest in the practise and do not find it erotic... however one of the stories is about this and isn't just very readable, but highly erotic as well. (even gave me a hardon)

good writing is good writing, regardless of gender etc etc

I´m so totally with Zortek on this question!
The notion, that you can´t write about X, unless you yourself are X, is to me utterly absurd, patently false and even dangerous.
To the list of female writers who have written beautifully about gay (and straight) men, let me add just one more example : Marguerite Yourcenar, The Memoirs of Emperor Hadrian (I´m not 100% certain that this is the exact title, but something like that).
At the same time, I´m convinced that many straight women has written quite dull and sloppy books about gay men and about gay sex in particular. But why? Because they are straight women??? I´d say in 99 cases out of 100 because they wrote sloppy - because they didn´t work enough on their text for one reason or another. Writing is hard work, often lonely and quite booring, but there´s no way around all that re-writing, re-writing and re-writing to get a good book.
Did W.H. Auden write the most wonderful gay pornographic poem in english in the 20th century - The Platonic Blow - because he was a gay man??? No way! Because he was the splendid poet he was!
So let´s end this posting with the first two lines from Audens 34 four-line stanzas:
It was a spring day, a day for a lay, when the air
smelled like a locker room, a day to blow or get blown.

CovingtonBay · Aug 6, 2011

It doesn't bother me at all. A good writer is a good writer. I wonder why there aren't more gay men writing in the industry though.

wildchild · Aug 6, 2011

A little bit off topic. But on a gay torrent website - which I will try not to name - there was a new torrent with over 700 collective ebooks - all gay themed.

So I would encourage all you avid readers to download it and start reading! AND to purchase any of your favourite books on book depository? or whatever it is.

bijou · Aug 6, 2011

That's a fair point. I wonder if there are any stat ratios of men to women who write GLBT as main characters. Joseph Hansen (now deceased), Michael Jensen, Joe D'Marco and Victor Banis come to mind. I write gay books as well. That said, it seems on the surface, that the m/m romance market is dominated by women writers. The readership too, seems squarely female. When I published my first book I expected my readers to be paunchy guys lounging seaside in ill fitting speedos. I was surprised to learn that 80% or more of my readers are women. God Love'm!

CovingtonBay said:
I wonder why there aren't more gay men writing in the industry though.

fieldofsnow · Oct 27, 2011

Well... As a woman who's basically read nothing but M/M books, manga, fanfiction and/or whatever for a few years now and dreams of one day writing books of my own in that category (been writing fan fiction in it for a few years now) then I must say I am all for it. (I'm assuming that the fact that I am Bi doesn't change much as I am still a woman and will therefore not have "personal experience" or anything with being a gay man)

What I have learned from reading in this category is that as long as the writer is good there is absolutely no difference between the writings of gay men and straight women. Like in every other category in writing, if the writer is good, it doesn't matter if it's a man writing about a woman or a woman writing about a man, straight or gay, because they manage to make the story believable.

As far as I've seen there are actually more women writing in this category and therefore it's a whole lot easier to find crappy M/M books by women than it is to find a crappy novel by a gay man. I read all of these novels on my kindle (because although my country is very advanced with gay rights they pretty much don't sell anything in gay fiction) and it seems like the standards for e-books are lower than regular books because I've seen a lot of e-books that are worse than fan-fiction novels by 12 year olds...

So I guess what I'm trying to say is there are amazing M/M writers out there who are women but since for every 1 good writer there seem to be about 10 other writers who are crap it kind of seems like they might not be as good at it.

Whisper · Oct 28, 2011

fieldofsnow said:
Well... As a woman who's basically read nothing but M/M books, manga, fanfiction and/or whatever for a few years now and dreams of one day writing books of my own in that category (been writing fan fiction in it for a few years now) then I must say I am all for it. (I'm assuming that the fact that I am Bi doesn't change much as I am still a woman and will therefore not have "personal experience" or anything with being a gay man)

What I have learned from reading in this category is that as long as the writer is good there is absolutely no difference between the writings of gay men and straight women. Like in every other category in writing, if the writer is good, it doesn't matter if it's a man writing about a woman or a woman writing about a man, straight or gay, because they manage to make the story believable.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is there are amazing M/M writers out there who are women but since for every 1 good writer there seem to be about 10 other writers who are crap it kind of seems like they might not be as good at it.

Here's another woman reading and writing M/M and I have to say that I agree with you

explrrrs · Aug 13, 2012

Truthfully, I've always found it a bit odd, not saying that just because I find it odd it's wrong. However, I've read quite a few gay romances and smut books written by women. The flavor in my humble opinions,

, is different. If you get the chance, read the gay smut written in the 1980's. I believe many of those were written by men. There is a sense of speed and urgency when you read them; the desire for sex and fantasy overrides the imagination and despite being a visual person, it is really arousing. Then there is the stuff written by women. I can't say I'm always turned on, but the stories are well crafted and the scenes are created from the imagination of research. Also, there's the yaoi vs. the bara of Japan. The yaoi, is aimed at women and girls who have a curiosity and desire to understand and view the romance between men, a world they aren't a part of (something I gleaned from a culture class, years ago). Bara on the other hand is usually written by gay men who accentuate the beauty of men in their physical form and weave a story around the big penis and the wild and uncontrollable sex situations that occur. For some gay men like myself, after awhile yaoi just blurs into each other, the stories repeat and the uke and seme look all the same. The bara seers into my mind and the artist's understand of what I really want doesn't keeps me coming back for more, money wise

.
All in all, both are works of fiction and all can be appreciated, but I think the true difference lies in how long you appreciate. But against all I say, I'm totally hooked on a yaoi written by a woman called Junjou Romantica, one of the pairs in there have really captured by attention. Not aroused by it, but I totally dig it.

kblocky13 · Aug 13, 2012

I've read a lot of M/M fiction written by straight people and I find it pretty good. Of course there's some bad works out there, but that's to be expected and in my opinion it has little to do with the fact that it was written by straight persons, I know I've read some gay M/M authors who were pretty bad.

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