Germanwings tragedy

Shelter · Mar 27, 2015

I must open this new thread. Since Tuesday it is haunting me until to my dreams. The crash of the plane with 150 passengers and crew members including 16 pupils in southern France is horrible enough and hard to understand.

But now the newest development caps it all. The co-pilot (a 27 year old guy) bolt out the captain and headed the plane directly into the mountains. They say that's an extended suicide - but I think it is coldblooded homicide.

The investigators have found in his flat medical papers which are showing that he was not able to go to work. Obviously he has had a mental illness - from which his employers hasn't had any notion.

And so he decided to kill himself and all his passengers and crew colleagues.

I'm shocked, sad and furious.

I can't even imagine what the parents, brothers, sisters, husbands all the families of the victims must feel now after this new development.

And what must feel the parents of the co-pilot, the offender?!

gb2000ie · Mar 27, 2015

It's the parents of the co-pilot that I keep thinking of.

First, they suffer terrible grief as they lose their young son. Then, suddenly that grief is filled with goodness knows what emotions as you learn that your beloved son is actually responsible for all these deaths.

If the man really was ill, then I don't think we can call it murder, because he was obviously not in his right mind. Our strongest instinct is self-preservation, something has to go badly wrong in our brains for us to kill ourselves, let alone to do it in such a way that you take 149 others with you.

I think it is probable the low-cost model has to shoulder at least some of the blame here.

We put a LOT of responsibilities on the shoulders of pilots. We give them very big responsibilities, we make them shoulder those responsibilities for very long hours, and then, we don't even pay them well.

When you put people into situations like that, some of them will crack, it is inevitable. To put all the blame on those that do seems unfair to me.

This is not a German Wings problem, it goes MUCH further, and frankly, it comes down to the fact that we the public expect to be able to fly half way across Europe for a pittance. When you cut corners that much, something has to give! If it's not the equipment, then it will be the humans.

B.

bigsal · Mar 27, 2015

Our age, despite the pomposity and arrogance of power unrolled not by the basic laws and the much-hyped, or better to say "bisfrattata" democracy, with the media more and more subservient to the powers that be and trivially flattened on nothing, forget always something fundamental in his sick conviction of invincibility: the human factor, the real unknown to every story.

Unfortunately, mental illness is still largely unknown. Admit psychiatrists themselves. And 'this is what is more frightening and since we know nothing, of this nor speak even less in an attempt to exorcise our lack of solutions.

dargelos · Mar 28, 2015

gb2000ie said:
Our strongest instinct is self-preservation,

It might seem that the instinct of self-preservation would be a protection against suicide, but the two apparent extremes are actualy closely related. The body has an automatic reaction to physical pain, if you touch a hot object your hand will pull away to protect you from being burnt. This is a simple act of self-preservation. We are designed to remove ourselves from the source of danger without having to think about it. When the pain is not physical but mental, the pain is just as real and the instinctive response is the same, to remove oneself from that which is causing the pain. If life itself is the source of the pain then it is a perfectly logical piece of self-preservation to isolate oneself from that source, in the short term with heroin or alcohol, or in the long term by ending life permanently. This is the course of action chosen by around a million people every year. Only a tiny minority harm innocent others in the process.
The books of Australian psychologist Dorothy Rowe explain this paradox better than I can.
Calling Andreas Lubitz a murderer is the worst thing we can do if we want to stop a tragedy like this from happening again. With less fear and ignorance around the subject of mental health, he would have been able to accept help and so many lives would have been saved.

gb2000ie · Mar 28, 2015

dargelos said:
Calling Andreas Lubitz a murderer is the worst thing we can do if we want to stop a tragedy like this from happening again. With less fear and ignorance around the subject of mental health, he would have been able to accept help and so many lives would have been saved.

Well said!

B.

Shelter · Mar 28, 2015

Many thanks to all of you who have answered my thread here. And thank you too for you nearly 100% unanimous opinion to this disaster.

In the meantime I've read very much about mental illness. Someone who is suffering on it very often can hide it in front of others - and no one may notice something. But such a person is not lunatic. So too this co-pilot. Totally attentive he has disowned his sick note and totally attentive he barred out the captain and pressed the button for the letdown of the plane into tragedy. He wasn't insane, but he was ill and rejected the help of his doctors. But there was no reason, no reason to take the lives of 149 for him totally unknown people (except his colleagues).

As well I think you are here totally right if you are lamenting the cheap delusion. Today, and that is true, you can have a flight from Europe to the USA for a pocket money - I know I have exaggerated a little bit. But I think you will understand what I mean. Today a flight is much cheaper as a train ticket. But shall that be a reason for this pilot to kill himself and his passengers? I think NO! That may be another thing.

As well I don't think that the pilots of all the airlines have to work more than other people. They have a very responsible job - that's true. And I think that the doctors, despite the confidentiality, must have informed the airline about these special problems of this young man. Perhaps 149 people would live today.

And my thoughts in this moment will go too to the parents and relatives of this pilot. Most of all his parents - until the end of their days they have to carry this horrible burden. They must live with a great guilt which is not their personal guilt!

And all the persons who have lost children, relatives, brothers, sisters, friends - how may they live with this knowing. Will it be possible to forgive?! Don't you understand that these people perhaps think of homicide? And would you condemn them for such thoughts, quiet or outspoken?

Thanks for your answers.
Love to all of you and R. I. P. all the victims

Frenchgerman · Mar 29, 2015

it was a sad, a very sad day ...

My family living near Düsseldorf, friends called to ask if among the victims were members of my family ... No there weren't any.
Which is just a small relief in this tragedy.

But, with these latest development that shelter spoke about ... I can't get out of my mind that the one who caused this accident was German ...
What would the German public have said, if by malchance it had been a French, a Spaniard or, horreur, a Greek ... There would have been an outcry ...

Shelter · Mar 29, 2015

Frenchgerman said:
it was a sad, a very sad day ...

My family living near Düsseldorf, friends called to ask if among the victims were members of my family ... No there weren't any.
Which is just a small relief in this tragedy.

But, with these latest development that shelter spoke about ... I can't get out of my mind that the one who caused this accident was German ...
What would the German public have said, if by malchance it had been a French, a Spaniard or, horreur, a Greek ... There would have been an outcry ...

I really don't understand your question. Do you think the German Army would have invaded France, Spain or, horreur, Greece? Do you really think the Germans are a whole world hating people? If you don't like the Germans and their way of life - ok, it's your taste. But don't put your hate about all of us openly. And if Germany and the Germans are so horrible for you, why you have still the word "german" in your nick?

Your post was abusive and in the extreme unfair ! :angry::angry::angry:

W!nston · Mar 29, 2015

Alps Germanwings crash co-pilot Lubitz 'made prediction'
BBC | 28 March 2015

The Germanwings co-pilot thought to have deliberately crashed his Airbus in the French Alps, killing 150 people, predicted "one day everyone will know my name", his ex-girlfriend says.

In an interview with Germany's Bild newspaper, she recalled a comment Andreas Lubitz made last year.

"One day I'm going to do something that will change the whole system, and everyone will know my name and remember," he told her.
Flight 4U 9525 crashed on Tuesday.

The woman, a 26-year-old flight attendant who flew with Lubitz for five months last year, was "very shocked" when she heard the news, the paper says.

She is referred to only as Maria W.

If Lubitz deliberately brought down the plane, "it is because he understood that because of his health problems, his big dream of a job at Lufthansa, as captain and as a long-haul pilot was practically impossible," she told Bild.
Meanwhile, German newspaper Die Welt said that investigators had found evidence of a serious "psychosomatic illness", and that Lubitz had been "treated by several neurologists and psychiatrists".

Several medicines used to treat mental illnesses were found at his home, but there were no signs of drug or alcohol addiction, the newspaper, citing an unnamed investigator, said.

Separately, the New York Times, citing officials, reported that Lubitz had sought treatment for eye problems.

Briton's father in plea to airlines

'Too much pressure'

French investigator Jean-Pierre Michel also told the AFP news agency that the pilot's personality was "a serious lead [in the investigation] but... can't be the only one".

"We're going to try to understand what in his life could have left him to carry out the act," Mr Michel said, adding that investigators had not discovered any "particular element" so far.

The black box voice recorder indicates that Lubitz locked his captain out of the cockpit on Tuesday and crashed the plane into a mountainside in what appears to have been a suicide and mass killing.

German prosecutors say they found medical doents at Lubitz's house suggesting an existing illness and evidence of medical treatment. They found torn-up sick notes, one of them for the day of the crash.

They say he seems to have concealed his illness from his employers.
His former girlfriend told Bild they separated, "because it became increasingly clear that he had a problem".

She said he was plagued by nightmares and would at times wake up screaming "we're going down".

She added that he became stressed when they spoke about work: "He became upset about the conditions we worked under: too little money, fear of losing the contract, too much pressure."

A hospital in the German city of Duesseldorf has confirmed Lubitz was a patient there recently but it denied media reports that he had been treated for depression.

Lubitz's employers insisted that he had only been allowed to resume training after his suitability was "re-established".

Lubitz's health timeline

2009: Breaks off pilot training while still in his early twenties after suffering "depressions and anxiety attacks", the German tabloid Bild reports, quoting Lufthansa medical files. Resumes training after 18 months of treatment, according to Bild

2013: Qualifies "with flying colours" as pilot, according to Lufthansa

2013-2015: Medical file quoted by Bild marks him as requiring "specific regular medical examination" but no details are given
February 2015: Undergoes diagnosis at Duesseldorf University Clinic for an unspecified illness; clinic has clarified the illness was not depression

10 March 2015: Again attends Duesseldorf University Clinic

24 March 2015:Is believed to have deliberately crashed airliner, killing himself and 149 others

26 March 2015: Prosecutors announce that two sick notes have been found torn up at his addresses in Germany

SOURCE

gb2000ie · Mar 30, 2015

Shelter said:
I really don't understand your question. Do you think the German Army would have invaded France, Spain or, horreur, Greece? Do you really think the Germans are a whole world hating people? If you don't like the Germans and their way of life - ok, it's your taste. But don't put your hate about all of us openly. And if Germany and the Germans are so horrible for you, why you have still the word "german" in your nick?

Your post was abusive and in the extreme unfair ! :angry::angry::angry:

I don't think anyone was implying Germany would invade anyone.

Just that it could stir up some of the racism that is undeniably bubbling in Germany at the moment. I know the racists are a minority, but they are there, and getting ever bolder, and that is worrying.

I think it is fair to say that had it been a Greek who killed so many Germans, there would probably have been some regrettable outbursts from the racists.

B.

dargelos · Mar 30, 2015

It was not a German who caused this horrific event, nor was it a Greek or French or Jewish or Muslim person. It was an illness.

Everyday on the road there are drivers who crash their car on purpose because they cannot bear to continue with their lives. Inexplicable traffic accidents involving a good driver with a good car on a good road are seldom recorded as suicide because there is little evidence and coroners tend to want to minimise distress to families. Usualy only the driver dies but sometimes third parties become caught up in the crash causing additional deaths. Only one or two or three perhaps but over a year it adds up to a lot.
It's only because air disasters are so amazingly rare that they attract so public a response, the same loss of life on the roads is scarcely news.

Frenchgerman · Mar 30, 2015

Shelter, I nevertalked about a country invading another, I did not talk about hate. On the contrary, I love my birth country, but I love it with open eyes.
And the Germans (as a whole) are convinced that - to say it 'salopp' - not only their shit doesn't stink, but that all the other peoples have to accept their exemple.
The reaction of which I spoke, the outcry, would have been : absence of training, not qualified, not able to, not trustworthy, etc ...

Dargelos : mental illness is an explanation and sometimes an excuse. But can one excuse the death of 149 other human beings ? He is guilty (if all this is proven correct), but he is not accountable for his act.
I think that the USA (I don't know which state, perhaps Georgia) have recently executed a man for murder, without consideration for the fact that he was mentally ill ...

In this accident, there has to be no finger pointing, no guilt heeped on anyone.

I merely talked about my perception of some 'details' and tried to place them in the larger picture (the place of individul countries in a supranational structure and the perception of the others)

and from other situations : he is not the first, nor is he last person, in order to satisfy a need, an urge, a desire, to express a will, to kill hundreds, thousands or hundred of thousands.
That is human nature.

topdog · Mar 30, 2015

I don't think I have ever seen a crash investigation with this many press leaks of partial and incomplete information. I think it may be because it is a crime scene, so the police are involved and they are passing everything over to the press.

Usually, the NTSB here in the US, or their counterpart agencies elsewhere say nothing until they issue preliminary report after 30 days. The reason is because new information is constantly coming to light, and until they can see everything side by side, no real conclusions can be drawn. This time everything seems to be spinning out of control.

The current theory making the rounds in the papers is that the co-pilot suffered from depression, so he crashed the plane.

That makes no sense. Depressed people may jump off of bridges or take their life in other ways. But killing 150 people is not something that has its roots in depression. That is an act of anger, frustration, or heroic delusion.

As someone who deals with depression myself, I think that I can speak for many of my melancholy colleagues and say that we have neither the interest nor the energy to pull off anything on that scale. We just want to go home and go to bed.

All I'm saying is that it is far too early to be drawing conclusions. There are missing pieces in this puzzle.

Frenchgerman · Mar 30, 2015

he was not only treated for depression, he wanted that the whole world knew who he was ... that his name was in everone's mouth ...

Shelter · Mar 30, 2015

dargelos said:
It was not a German who caused this horrific event, nor was it a Greek or French or Jewish or Muslim person. It was an illness.

Everyday on the road there are drivers who crash their car on purpose because they cannot bear to continue with their lives. Inexplicable traffic accidents involving a good driver with a good car on a good road are seldom recorded as suicide because there is little evidence and coroners tend to want to minimise distress to families. Usualy only the driver dies but sometimes third parties become caught up in the crash causing additional deaths. Only one or two or three perhaps but over a year it adds up to a lot.
It's only because air disasters are so amazingly rare that they attract so public a response, the same loss of life on the roads is scarcely news.

Hello Dargelos - you are very similar to my BF. Whereas I'm very emotional and quick-tempered, he is the cool and placid part in our life. And it seems to me so you are.

With your quiet manner you have brought this lurching ship (this thread!) again on line. I want to say many thanks for this post. :thumbs up::thumbs up::thumbs up:

Shelter · Mar 30, 2015

Frenchgerman said:
Shelter, I nevertalked about a country invading another, I did not talk about hate. On the contrary, I love my birth country, but I love it with open eyes.
And the Germans (as a whole) are convinced that - to say it 'salopp' - not only their shit doesn't stink, but that all the other peoples have to accept their exemple.
The reaction of which I spoke, the outcry, would have been : absence of training, not qualified, not able to, not trustworthy, etc ...

Dargelos : mental illness is an explanation and sometimes an excuse. But can one excuse the death of 149 other human beings ? He is guilty (if all this is proven correct), but he is not accountable for his act.
I think that the USA (I don't know which state, perhaps Georgia) have recently executed a man for murder, without consideration for the fact that he was mentally ill ...

In this accident, there has to be no finger pointing, no guilt heeped on anyone.

I merely talked about my perception of some 'details' and tried to place them in the larger picture (the place of individul countries in a supranational structure and the perception of the others)

and from other situations : he is not the first, nor is he last person, in order to satisfy a need, an urge, a desire, to express a will, to kill hundreds, thousands or hundred of thousands.
That is human nature.

Hello Frenchgerman - thank you too for your rectification of your earlier post which gave me the impression to which I reacted in my post.

As well I think your post has gone a little bit away from the topic of this thread.
I allude to your remark of Greece. That will be a totally other topic and perhaps we should argue this theme in another thread if you want - I'm down!

Shelter · Mar 30, 2015

gb2000ie said:
I don't think anyone was implying Germany would invade anyone.

Just that it could stir up some of the racism that is undeniably bubbling in Germany at the moment. I know the racists are a minority, but they are there, and getting ever bolder, and that is worrying.

I think it is fair to say that had it been a Greek who killed so many Germans, there would probably have been some regrettable outbursts from the racists.

B.

Greetings to you too GB. But let me tell you that Germany isn't the one and only country here in Europe where racism is bubbling at the moment. The same problems are in France, in the Netherlands, in Italy as well as in Austria or in Swizzerland.

And why it is so as it is? Many, many thousands of people from Syria, from Iraq or from Africa deluge us here. All these fugitives want to come to Germany because they have heard here they will get milk and honey and have nothing to do for it. Our politicans don't do anything to involve the normal Germans into this process. Suddenly in a quiet neighborhood they put container for the fugitives. And here different cultures clashes - and anxieties are boiling over. The people are overwhelmed. And from the official side only silence or the slander these people are "right wings" "racists" or simply "Nazis" which is until today and to all future the best word to kill a free expression.

Yes and than there will come a ratcatcher and will tell these people how right they are and that in their neighborhood is bubbling a horrible danger! And people react!

And only one example for you how politicians doing wrong although they are meaning well. Here in Berlin there is a borough called Kreuzberg which will be in the meantime for many people a no-go area. The Berliners are calling this borough "little Ankara". And here is a schoolhouse rededicated as a home for fugitives. The most occupants of this "home" are rejected asylum seekers which are refusing to leave the house. And the politicians are doing nothing but they pay for their meals, for their water and electricity supply. More than 500.000,-- € have been paid in the meantime for rejected asylum seekers. But now they cannot repair streets or shoolhouses or swimming pools. And the people shall understand that? And again - than is coming a ratcatcher....... And you are surprised why right wing parties again are on the rise?

gorgik9 · Mar 30, 2015

topdog said:
I don't think I have ever seen a crash investigation with this many press leaks of partial and incomplete information. I think it may be because it is a crime scene, so the police are involved and they are passing everything over to the press.

Usually, the NTSB here in the US, or their counterpart agencies elsewhere say nothing until they issue preliminary report after 30 days. The reason is because new information is constantly coming to light, and until they can see everything side by side, no real conclusions can be drawn. This time everything seems to be spinning out of control.

The current theory making the rounds in the papers is that the co-pilot suffered from depression, so he crashed the plane.

That makes no sense. Depressed people may jump off of bridges or take their life in other ways. But killing 150 people is not something that has its roots in depression. That is an act of anger, frustration, or heroic delusion.

As someone who deals with depression myself, I think that I can speak for many of my melancholy colleagues and say that we have neither the interest nor the energy to pull off anything on that scale. We just want to go home and go to bed.

All I'm saying is that it is far too early to be drawing conclusions. There are missing pieces in this puzzle.

Andreas Lubitz is totally dead and no-one can do anything about it, and the same thing goes for 149 other totally dead people. It doesn't matter whatever kind of scapegoating me or you or anybody else on GH get into - everybody is just plain dead. Period. Full stop. Deaddeaddead...

I'm totally with topdog! If anything is clear, it's that there are missing pieces in this puzzle - that's about the only thing I'm certain of. In Swedish media the last two days there's been a lot of talk about Lubitz having a severe eye disease - retinitis - and the possible consequenses for his career as a pilot, so new things pop up every other day.

The last few days we've gotten new information or missinformation or roumers or whatever every day...what of all info/pseudo/bullshit is RELEVANT? Let the investigators do their hard job, and let's hope that sooner or later we will get the full picture and valid conclusions.

150 human beings are totally dead, and Harry Potter with all his wizardry can't do anything about it.

gb2000ie · Mar 30, 2015

-- deleted by poster --

I'm not going to respond to racism in this thread - it's not the place.

I'll just say I 200% diagree with Shelter.

Frenchgerman · Mar 30, 2015

yes please, let's close the OT and go back to the initial discussion ... if there is anything left to say ...

Germanwings tragedy

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