are you a Man?

[ritsuka]

I very strongly object to the repressive, exclusive, outdated definitions that people place on what is a "man." It is a meaningless, divisive term--I support the right of male people to be whatever they want, and not conform to the pathetic outdated gender roles that men/women try to condescend and force onto especially young people. I hope that more boys over time will break free from the repressive strictures enforced by things like militarism, chivalry, macheesemo, and some of the hateful suppositions from the feminist movement as well.

 

[gramison]

some folks become obsessed with inequality between the genders and begin to see it as the issue, i.e. the root cause of all society's problems.

I do not see it as the root cause of all of society's problems. I do however see the enforcement of hard-molded gender roles as a major impediment of equal rights for non-traditional/non-heterosexual people. The fact that homosexuality does not conform to the traditional heteronormative framework is one of the main impetuses and excuses given for discrimination based on sexual orientation.

...the real inequality... the one form of inequality that will persist until the end of time --rich versus poor, or the powerful versus the subjugated. If is a fallacy (and a fatal strategic error) to try and 'pin it all' (inequality in general) on a single issue. This is a hard fact to face, but like Foucault, all we can do is laugh!

While we certainly cannot blame all inequity on a single issue, that is hardly to say that it is not an issue. I believe that I must speak out against an institution which I feel to be a major reason that the life I would like to live is deemed "immoral" or "deviant" or "non-traditional" by a good portion of society.

 

[gramison]

But, pray tell, what institutions must you speak out against?

Traditional, heteronormative gender roles which attempt to dictate what is acceptable behavior for men and women.

And what is this life you wish to lead?

I'm gay. I wish to be able to privately, but freely pursue my desires in this regard in a way that does not affect what jobs I can get or how people or my government treat me. I allege that the above-described institution hampers my ability to do so.

What freedoms are denied you? Please list these freedoms... as best you can.

Life
Liberty
Pursuit of Happiness

 

[gramison]

Sweetie, roles are not institutions.

S: institution (a custom that for a long time has been an important feature of some group or society) "the institution of marriage"; "the institution of slavery"; "he had become an institution in the theater

I believe that the perpetuation of strictly defined gender roles fits that definition.

Please also explain how each of these institutions hampers or outright denies the freedoms you desire. If you can.

I claim that traditional, heteronormative gender roles promote discrimination based on sexual orientation. This is because many homosexuals do not conform to these strictly defined roles.

How do these various institutions hamper of deny 'life... liberty... pursuit of hapiness'?

I think that it is commonly accepted that homosexuals do not have equal rights or are heavily discriminated against in many countries. I linked to specific examples of each in my previous post.

 

[ritsuka]

I agree with gramison. I think it is sad when people try to say that race or economics are the only issues, and wish to marginalize those who disagree on that note. Many queer radicals go the other way, and believe in linking up issues and struggles as opposed to excluding or being excluded. People have the right to vouch for their own concerns, and not bind them away in place of wider subjects that they are not even invited to join into.

 

[gramison]

Can you also provide dictionary definitions of 'life', 'liberty', 'pursuit', 'happiness'?

People who are killed or beaten for being gay.
People who are imprisoned for being gay.
People who are not allowed to marry and receive the same benefits under the law for being gay.

(Examples of which were all given in links.)

I may be more passionate about this than others because I have many friends who unfortunately fall into some of the first two categories. And I of course fall into the third along with many other people around the world. It's hard not to care when it affects you personally.
:heart:

 

[bobbelsche]

I completely agree. Everybody should be free to express and feel they way he/she is.

 

[gramison]

gramison,'Passion' or pathos is a component of rhetoric, and is commonly deployed by politicians (in a cynical way, of course!) in order to win over their audience. It can be a way of shutting down opposing arguments --anyone who would argue against the position of the cynical politician is meant to be stunned by a series of dramatic statements and definitions, with extreme references to victimhood... and of course with how it is that the politicians purports to be a victim himself, by virtue of his personal life and experiences. With respect to your definitions, and the way you have set them out, I would say that your argument is mere rhetoric.

To me, passion implies an issue that I care strongly about and will pursue. That is all.

Any social problem creates victimhood. Just because I mention it hardly implies that there is no substance to my argument.

My argument is as follows:
1. The perpetuation of traditional, heteronormative gender roles promotes discrimination based on sexual orientation.
2. This causes unjust victimhood (which happens to relate directly to me.)

None of your responses have directly related to the ideas I put forth. What is your opinion on this issue?

 

[ritsuka]

but sometimes all of these well-meaning folks lose sight of the real inequality... the one form of inequality that will persist until the end of time --rich versus poor, or the powerful versus the subjugated.

Labeling an inequality as the only "real" one is what I was speaking against. Everyone has their own issues. It's just as easy to say that people who advocate (or seem to) for economic equality sometimes lose sight of gay rights, the environment, racial discrimination, etc.

 

[ritsuka]

That is really preachy and moralistic the way you bring up Africa in order to condescend and shame people for their political views; just like many abusive parents tell their children that "people are starving in Africa, so how dare you not let me arbitrarily, blindly control your digestive system?" It is really an empty non-starter. And as we can see with the Maoists in India, poor hungry forest people who despite that go out of their way to adopt the most environmentally friendly practices and advance social justice and equality amongst themselves (same thing in Latin America) it is really false, but tends more towards the imperialistic viewpoint; that poor Africans are stupid and mooreless, only caring about food which should of course be from dumping highly subsidized GM corn onto their markets. And of course there are no gays, no men or women or children or disabled people in Africa; those types are only in rich countries. As I mentioned above, a lot of good people are out there linking struggles together into wide movements, wide platforms, instead of merely criticizing the causes of others.

I'm not going to argue with you about feminism, I will respond but I'm not going to listen to a long list of semantic mind-games from you; of course it's fine if you don't agree. The hateful suppositions are things like "men are inherently violent," "violence comes from testosterone," "if women ruled the world there would be no more wars," etc. I disagree with these and many other things in academic feminist theory that wrongly seek to define "men" in negative, corrosive ways and ignore the victimization (physical and sexual violence) against males at the root of social problems. I support social justice and positive portrayals of male people, as opposed to prosecution and proselytization.

 

[slimjim]

[/QUOTE]

I only have one way to reply tovarisch...






.

 

[BugsyB]

it was a simple question guys....are you a man? nothing more hahahahahahahahahaha

isn't it funny how we react to that.....lol

i hope all the girls are having a good laugh:rofl:

how easy are we???? hehe lol

 

[jw4833]

I remember when I started venturing to certain gay bars on the other side of town and how I would hang against the back wall of the bar observing everyone. Eventually, I was approached by some of the guys, they had confided to me that they thought initially that I was a gay basher or a closeted straight guy because I don't present myself like the gay guys that they are accustomed to frequenting the bars in their community. In fact, few of the people that I have came out to, still does not believe that I'm totally gay because of the stereotypical behavior that they perceive of gay people. The owner of this one club had told me that in her opinion, I am a true gentleman who exudes class...and that's how she defines a real man...lol..

 

[rockstar]

i am a man, however it would be nice to change into a woman for a day.. so i can be screwed by straight MEN.... LOL