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Sides In Scottish Referendum Make Final Push

W!nston

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I must admit to being totally in the dark about this. I'm sure the history leading to this vote is complicated. I need the condensed 'cliff notes' version from one of our resident Scottish/British pundits to help me know what the hell is going on in Great Britain ;)

scotland_3019008b.jpg

Sides In Scottish Referendum Make Final Push
Associated Press | By Jill Lawless | Sept 16 2014 12:14pm

EDINBURGH, Scotland (AP) — The two sides in Scotland's independence debate scrambled Tuesday to convert undecided voters, with just two days to go until a referendum on separation.

The pitch of the debate has grown increasingly shrill as both sides make their oft-repeated claims and promises with increasing urgency, and supporters square off at public appearances.

Labour Party leader Ed MIliband, who backs the anti-independence "Better Together" campaign, was surrounded by rival camps shouting "Vote Yes" and "Vote No" during a walkabout at an Edinburgh shopping center.

Miliband said he understood that "passions run high," but he hoped the debate would be conducted "in a civilized way."

Thursday's referendum, in which more than 4.2 million people are registered to vote, is a high-stakes decision that could end a political union that has stood since 1707.

Anti-independence campaigners argue that separation could send the economy into a tailspin. The Yes side accuses its foes of scaremongering and says independence will give Scots political control and economic prosperity.

After a late poll surge for the pro-independence side, the No campaign is striving to persuade Scottish voters that they will gain more autonomy if they do not secede.

Prime Minister David Cameron, Miliband and Liberal Democrat chief Nick Clegg all signed a pledge published Tuesday in the Daily Record newspaper promising Scots "extensive new powers" — including tax-raising authority — if they remain part of the United Kingdom.

Labour Party politician Douglas Alexander said a No vote meant "faster, safer, better change for Scotland," while independence would bring "risks, uncertainties and costs."

"With just 48 hours to go, they can't even tell us what currency we'll be using," Alexander told No supporters in Edinburgh's financial district.

The pro-independence Scottish government says Scotland will continue to use the pound sterling, but the British government insists it won't agree to a currency union.

The Yes campaign says the promises of new powers are vague and reveal the No side's desperation.

"This last-minute desperate offer of nothing is not going to dissuade people in Scotland from the huge opportunity of taking Scotland's future into Scotland's hands this coming Thursday," First Minister Alex Salmond told the BBC.

Salmond has stressed that after a Yes vote, many things will not change, from the currency to the monarch, Queen Elizabeth II.

No campaigners have used increasingly stark language to claim a Yes vote would be irreversible.

On Tuesday Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown — a Scot who commands considerable popular affection in the country — said voting for independence would end "every single last remaining link that exists, the connections we have, with our friends, neighbors and relatives" in the rest of the U.K.

"This cannot be a trial separation," Brown told an audience in western Scotland. "This is bound to be a messy and expensive and costly and difficult divorce."

But Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said Scotland would "continue to be part of the family of nations that make up the British Isles."

"Those ties are not about politics, those ties are about people," she said.

Polls suggest the outcome will be close, and several hundred thousand voters who have yet to make up their minds could determine whether Scotland leaves its 307-year-old union with England.

For some voters, concerns about economic insecurity and job losses are a powerful reason to reject independence.

Property developer Alex Watts said international investors were putting Scottish projects and purchases on hold because of the uncertainty around the vote.

"What the property industry needs in Scotland is more certainty and stability," he said. "Why should we take the risk? Scotland is not the only place to invest in."

Others, though, say the negative campaign of politicians on the No side has driven them into the Yes camp.

"Rather than putting their own case for why we should stay together they're trying to scare us into not separating," said Mike Smith, who sells leather goods from a stall along Edinburgh's Royal Mile.

"If that's what they're doing now, what are they doing the rest of the time?"
 

Shelter

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Our German "Scots" are the Bavarians - perrhaps they aquired a taste for it!? -:)
 
F

frontlemon

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Feels a lot to me like a family debating about break up (note that in many Asian countries we have a concept of joint families).
 

dargelos

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To keep it simple;
Many other countries have the same problem, all the money, all the power, all the good jobs, are clustered around the capital city, in this case London. Govt takes care of its own, London gets all the investment, polititians listen to the important people who live near the centre of power.
As you move north away from London the voters become second class citizens then third class, in Newcastle we are fourth class citizens, then by the time you get to Scotland which is furthest away from London the voters start to feel that nobody gives a damn about them. Which is true most of the time.
On an election map there is an obvious divide into two countries, the south votes for the conservative party, the north for the centre Labour party. For decades frustration has been rotting away, making the people of Scotland feel that democracy has failed.
Divorce is alway expensive and messy but that's what happens in an unfair one sided relationship.
 

W!nston

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Thank you dargelos for putting the essence of this into a nutshell for me :)

It is reminiscent of the complaints that drove certain states to attempt secession from the Union in 19th century America. The historical revisionists have colored it as pro-slavery against anti-slavery; as the good Union against the evil Confederates. That was not the case. It started for the very same reasons that are now playing out in the not-so United Kingdom. I'm happy to see this secession movement is all about the ballot box.

I wish the best for all concerned across the big pond.
 

dargelos

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I am too scared to make a prediction as to how the cookie will crumble, it's like the last question on who wants to be a millionaire, except the stakes are hundreds of billions, not just a million pounds ( or should I say poonds)
Some good has come out of this, Gordon Brown, former prime minister who is widely disliked but I admire him, has been withdrawn and depressed after losing office. This debate has brought him back to life again.
An example of one of the consequences; the nuclear submarine facility may have to move from Scotland to Portsmouth, whose citizens will welcome the jobs that brings but not the fact of their town being used for the storage of atomic weapons. What could possibly go wrong there?
Don't think theres any aggro between the English and Scots people, we're still friends. It's only politics.
 

james1981

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This reminds me of the 1995 Quebec Referendum, which asked the question whether Quebec should separate from Canada. The vote was ridiculously close with the Yes side getting 49.49% and the No side getting 50.58%.
 

W!nston

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The referendum failed. I'm sure there are some very disappointed folks in Scotland today. I'm not sure what else to say.

Sniff
 

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I've been a few times to the UK and noticed a lot of animosity between the different parts. If it is the Scots, the Welsh or the English, I got the impression they love to hate each other (don't know the Northern Irish that well).

A Welsh once told me I should not take it too serioulsy. Yes, they would have no good word for each other but on the other hand they're glad that they've been part of the "Empire".

One time was 1992 with the school, we went around England and Scotland. And the Scots always told us how much they hated the English, even little children. I remember being informed by two seven to ten year olds, which left me little speechless.

We went from England to Scotland and we had to exchange the english pounds to scotish pounds. At the banks we always did it wrongly when we said "Could you change these british pounds into scotish pounds pleeease?" Loooong speeches about the differences between the UK, Great Britain, Scotland, England etc. followed each time.

I'm glad about this decision though it's not a surprise. In the end the results gets more conservative than the pre-polls. People get afraid of their own courage when it gets serious.
 

dargelos

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I don't say the referendum failed, I say it has been a spectacular success. The point is not which side won but that democracy won.
For this vote the franchise has been extended to include 16 and 17 year olds, these are the ones with the most to win or lose with the long term future of their country. Once the youth get used to the idea that voting matters, they will take an interest in politics, I hope.
Look at the turnout, 84.6%, that is an excellent result if you think people should start giving a damn about poitics. Many local elections struggle to get half that. The campaign has made ordinary voters wake up and start some serious thinking, about that I am very pleased.

Dear ihno the hate you saw between differant regions of the UK was fun-hate, like the bickering couple who have been together for decades, they bitch but they bitch with love.

If you want a rib tickling laugh, read about how Russia is casting doubt on the fairness of the vote count.
Well, they are the authority on political honesty as everyone knows.
 

W!nston

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That is the whole point isn't it? Scotland turned out to vote. The result of the vote is not as important as the people's participation to decide it.
 

ihno

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Dear ihno the hate you saw between differant regions of the UK was fun-hate, like the bickering couple who have been together for decades, they bitch but they bitch with love.

More like brother and sister I would say. Those bitch each other without love but stick together in the end. ;)

I didn't mean the kind of animosity that leads to violence of course but I didn't think of it as fun as well. But it's always the ones with the oddest views you remember best after 20 years.
 

gb2000ie

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The referendum failed. I'm sure there are some very disappointed folks in Scotland today. I'm not sure what else to say.

Sniff

Errr - no - the referendum succeeded.

There was a massive turnout and the people were able to express themselves freeling and democratically.

The majority have spoken, and they will get their way - SUCCESS!

B.
 

W!nston

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I misspoke - the referendum was a huge success. The effort to split Scotland from the United Kingdom failed - there is a huge difference.

English is a difficult language for everyone so I should be more careful with my diction.
 

gb2000ie

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I misspoke - the referendum was a huge success. The effort to split Scotland from the United Kingdom failed - there is a huge difference.

Indeed!

My brain tells me they made the right choice, but part of me wishes the result had gone the other way. Why? Well, I think the Scots could build quite an interesting nation for themselves for a start. But, had they succeeded in breaking free, and then succeeded in getting back into the EU, then other small wanna-be nations might have been free to follow suit. Personally, I would like to get a chance to vote for an independent Flanders some day.

B.
 

tsimonj

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The thing was, that Spain had already pretty much said that they would veto Scotland joining the EU (as Spain doesn't want Catalonia, who are threatening a similar referendum in November, to become independent).
Under existing rules a territory that leaves the EU to be come an independent state must reapply to join the EU after independence. the process takes at least 3 years and must be approved by ALL existing member states.
If Flanders leaves Belgium you can bet that what remains of Belgium (and probably France too) would veto Flanders attempt to join the EU.
And without being members of the EU, Flanders citizens would no longer have the automatic right to live and work in other countries of the EU and would have to start its own independent currency & central bank (as Scotland would have been obliged to do, in spite of what their leader claimed).

The price of democracy is sometimes high!
 
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