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The Silent Minority

W!nston

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The Silent Minority
HuffPost | By Martin Marty | 02/16/2015 10:58 pm EST

20694511b8e50d24ef984b02dea188c399dd9586.jpg


America's largest ethnic group has assimilated so well that people barely notice it. So ran a headline in The Economist (Feb 7). Those of us who sight and study and report on ethnic groups are also busy studying their role in religion in American public life.

Of course, everyone knows about whom, in this case, we are reporting. Ask the politicians, the media leaders, and the pollsters about them. First, of course, are the African-Americans (41 million as of 2011) who topped the Irish-Americans (35 million), followed by Mexican-Americans (32 million). Let's toss in the English, an historic stock, with 26 million. Don't forget others in the top ten, among them the Italians, the Poles, and more.

Oh-oh! We forgot the Germans, who are Number One in "ancestry group population," with 49 million.

Who noticed and who notices them? The Economist did and does, because of the visit last week of German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Her headline in the Wall Street Journal (Feb 14-15) read "Crises in Ukraine, Greece Test Merkel's Influence, Stamina."

The polls tell us that Merkel may be "the most important woman in the world," but her picture, with France's President François Hollande, was buried in a corner of page 7.

The press has noticed that Germany has noticed crisis-level and "toxic" mistrust and anger among Germans over spying allegations involving the U.S. at a time when "free trade" talks are crucial. "Ami Go Home" is the new "Anti-Americanism, [which was] always strong on the German left, [now] beginning on the right."

While the polls debate their issues, let's use the Merkel visit to read The Economist's conjoined stories about Germans in America as the silent minority.

The news stories talked about how "inert" stories about Germans in America are. There is reason to ponder why those of the German-Reformed, German-Lutheran, and German-Catholic cohorts are not more "-ert."

German-American theologians like the Niebuhr brothers towered in the century past. Culturally, musicians like the so-often-performed Bach also resound under steeples.

(An aside: The "Marti" family is a Swiss-German clan to hundreds of Germans in our personal tribe. But "we" assimilated, along with the rest. We counted 29 (!) uncles and aunts and their spouses in our parents' generation, but cannot recall any of them or our grandparents visiting Germany or Switzerland, or communicating with "the old country." Ever. Compare them to Italian-Americans and others who kept close ties.)

What happened? First, World War I, when for a year German-Americans were suspect, as we fought "the Huns." But soon, after suffering, they turned super-patriotic. World War II found the U.S. fighting Germany in its abhorrent Nazi incarnation, when most German-Americans were again in the super-patriotic front.

But those "enemy" events led many to disguise or drop or render "inert" mention of their roots. The Economist mentions the names of the assimilated Pfizer, Boeing, Steinway, Levi-Strauss, and Heinz. These were not singled out ethnically as were figures like Dukakis and Cuomo and Kennedy, who were very visibly Greek- and Italian- and Irish- Americans.

Germans, says The Economist, imported Christmas trees and Easter bunnies and pretzels. "They built big Lutheran churches wherever they went." Assimilation has great significance in American religious history, as in politics.

The Economist, reporting on the Merkel-Obama (etc.) visits and events: "Unlike Indian-Americans, who went wild when [Narendra Modi] their new prime minister visited America, German-Americans will barely notice."

We are told that Chancellor Merkel is the daughter of a Lutheran minister and is herself Lutheran. But so far as we know, the German-Americans joined Scandinavian- and other Lutherans, plus German-American Catholics, who, again for many reasons, "inertly" "barely noticed."

SOURCE

This story touches on something I mentioned in another thread.

When I see someone I don't see Euro-Americans, Afro-Americans, Asian-Americans or any other -Americans.

If someone moves to a new country the burden is on them to assimilate into the new culture and society not the other way around.

In recent years immigrants move to America but don't even make an effort to learn the language or assimilate in any way. This is creating a non-homogeneous society and conflicts are bound to happen.

The way the media tries to alienate one ethnic minority against others for headlines is another popular wedge to divide us.

A great portion of my ancestry is of German descent. We are proud of that but we are more proud to be Americans.
 

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The Silent Minority
HuffPost | By Martin Marty | 02/16/2015 10:58 pm EST

20694511b8e50d24ef984b02dea188c399dd9586.jpg




SOURCE

This story touches on something I mentioned in another thread.

When I see someone I don't see Euro-Americans, Afro-Americans, Asian-Americans or any other -Americans.

If someone moves to a new country the burden is on them to assimilate into the new culture and society not the other way around.

In recent years immigrants move to America but don't even make an effort to learn the language or assimilate in any way. This is creating a non-homogeneous society and conflicts are bound to happen.

The way the media tries to alienate one ethnic minority against others for headlines is another popular wedge to divide us.

A great portion of my ancestry is of German descent. We are proud of that but we are more proud to be Americans.

Sniffit I'll clap my hands for your comment to this article. You are totally right - if anyone will left his original homecountry to find his luck abroad it's ok. But he has to assimilate totally in his new homeland. He is not a tourist but he will live forever in his new country. And the first and most important step has to be to learn the language of his new homeland. And not to live in a so called ghetto of his own former compatriots. If he has decided for instance to live from now on in America, he must know that from this moment he will be only from (for instance) German descent but he will be from that moment an American.

We have here in Germany thousands and thousands of Turkish people which will refuse (most of them!) to be Germans. They don't ask but they demand 2 passports for them. They want to have both citizenships! And most of them refuse to learn the German language. And in the meantime we have here in Germany two parallel societies. And in the big cities you will find Turkish quarters where you as a German really are a foreign body.
 

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A big difference between then and now was communication.
When my family came to the states from Ireland, contact with those at home was limited. No phone, no email, no planes. A letter...if you were literate. A long ride on a ship.
And yet they brought their culture with them. Boston was, and is, very Irish in character.

I have Brazilian friends who are recent immigrants. They are in regular contact with the grandparents, and spent Christmas back in Brazil.
But they are very American. English...definitely. The husband runs a painting business; the wife clean houses. The kids love Disney movies.

Another friend from Albania...same story. His English is excellent. He loves America, and is grateful that he has a new home here.

Most immigrants in the USA want to fit in. Access to jobs require it. And if the parents don't learn English, they will need their children to do their business for them.
 

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Sniffit I'll clap my hands for your comment to this article. You are totally right - if anyone will left his original homecountry to find his luck abroad it's ok. But he has to assimilate totally in his new homeland. He is not a tourist but he will live forever in his new country. And the first and most important step has to be to learn the language of his new homeland. And not to live in a so called ghetto of his own former compatriots. If he has decided for instance to live from now on in America, he must know that from this moment he will be only from (for instance) German descent but he will be from that moment an American.

We have here in Germany thousands and thousands of Turkish people which will refuse (most of them!) to be Germans. They don't ask but they demand 2 passports for them. They want to have both citizenships! And most of them refuse to learn the German language. And in the meantime we have here in Germany two parallel societies. And in the big cities you will find Turkish quarters where you as a German really are a foreign body.


Totally agree with you Shelter.
Now (mostly) Africa is deflation and Europe is full of boat people, I wonder or all of these people will meet the above comments of you.
So it can no longer everyone knows our culture is drowning ... sorry guys but do not come now with the explanation to be more human.
It is a tragedy that nobody knows a solution.



 

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the society has to make an effort to assimilate the newcomers. These cannot assimilate themselves. They can facilitate but the end depends on how they are viewed.

What Shelter wrote ist in my humble opinion a lot of bullshit - sorry ! He was right for the first generation. They had other problems more important than integration into the German society : survival !
But they educated their children in German schools and made every effort to be integrated. Their goal was reached with their children ! They are German, they feel German, they think German and most of them don't want to return to the 'Heimat' of the parents - even if that is the goal of the parents ...

About the concentration of immigrants in certain section of the cities ... He forgot to tell that this sections were deserted by the 'nativ Germans' because of the neighborhood : trains stations, industrial sites, etc The flats occupied by these then immigrants were not up to the standard the 'nativ Germans' demanded.
But these immigrants did what they could to better their living conditions and nowadays, those city sections are ones of the most search after by the young(er) generations.
 

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They are German, they feel German, they think German and most of them don't want to return to the 'Heimat' of the parents - even if that is the goal of the parents ...

.

Don't know, where you live. But a lot of them DON'T feel or think german - the opposite is the case. (Depends, from what part of the world they are comming)

So you don't see Portuguese, Spaniards, Belgians, Greeks, French, Italians p.e. running arround and shouting : Fucking Germans ! Because we have a similar background. But there are others ...
 

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I'm from the USA, so my comments are only from my own experience. I know that the Irish immigrants in the 19th century were seriously discriminated against, and that might be why they developed a strong sense of ethnicity. Today the same thing is happening with Hispanics. I'm not sure about Italians, but to my knowledge other European immigrants were not subject to the same discrimination, and that could have something to do with why they haven't developed the same sense of history.

My grandparents were from Germany on my Mom's side and Slovakia (then Czechoslovakia) on my Dad's side. My Mom knew German and cooked German (and American), my Dad knew Slovak, and they both celebrated their ethnic background, but first and foremost they thought of themselves as Americans. I know almost nothing about where my grandparents were from or about my relatives in Europe, because they never talked about any of that. My sense is that they came to this country to become Americans and were willing to put their former lives aside.
 

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Don't know, where you live. But a lot of them DON'T feel or think german - the opposite is the case. (Depends, from what part of the world they are comming)

So you don't see Portuguese, Spaniards, Belgians, Greeks, French, Italians p.e. running arround and shouting : Fucking Germans ! Because we have a similar background. But there are others ...

:agree::agree::agree::agree:
 

Shelter

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the society has to make an effort to assimilate the newcomers. These cannot assimilate themselves. They can facilitate but the end depends on how they are viewed.

What Shelter wrote ist in my humble opinion a lot of bullshit - sorry ! He was right for the first generation. They had other problems more important than integration into the German society : survival !
But they educated their children in German schools and made every effort to be integrated. Their goal was reached with their children ! They are German, they feel German, they think German and most of them don't want to return to the 'Heimat' of the parents - even if that is the goal of the parents ...

About the concentration of immigrants in certain section of the cities ... He forgot to tell that this sections were deserted by the 'nativ Germans' because of the neighborhood : trains stations, industrial sites, etc The flats occupied by these then immigrants were not up to the standard the 'nativ Germans' demanded.
But these immigrants did what they could to better their living conditions and nowadays, those city sections are ones of the most search after by the young(er) generations.

BULLSHIT????? Perhaps you are a member of Die Grünen or Die Linke because you see this problem through rose-coloured glasses.
"The are German, they feel German and they think German"????? My dear you seem to be out of one's mind!
"Most of them don't want to return to the 'Heimat' of the parents"?????? No they don't want because here in Germany they are living better because most of the jobless Turkish ones will get 'Hartz4' and the German administration will pay for their rent and so on and so on. And I'm speaking here only from Turkish people (from the most of them). They never ever have integrated themselves into the German society, except for a very few of them!

"The Society has to make an effort to assimilate the newcomers!"?????? Where are you living????
 

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Oh, no. The host country should never try to have it's own cultural identity. It should conform to the culture of the immigrants. But what if there is more than one large group of immigrants vying for cultural dominance one might ask? The loudest and most demanding group's culture should be adopted. The host culture can just sit back and let the invading cultures duel it out and may the strongest culture win.

I am being facetious, of course. In America there is no 'culture' to speak of. So it's a 'flavor of the decade' situation. Last decade was the Afro-centric culture's turn. This decade is a transition period into the Latino-centric culture. I suspect the next transition will be Sino-centric but it could be Islamo-centric or some other -centric incarnation. One thing is for sure. It won't be Euro-centric. No, no. For some reason the only group that it is still 'politically correct' to denigrate and despise is all things European.

Europeans are riddled with guilt for everything from a driven work ethic that has built the greatest civilization in history with a high standard of living for most of it's peoples to the woes of the third world that are somehow the consequence of European aggression.

The European empires of the last thousand years have conquered many lands by aggression. Those cultures adopted the language of it's conquerors and for the most part the religion too. The societies were dominated by their conquerors. Now the shoes are on the other feet. So let's just open the flood gates and tear down the ramparts. Get ready for the inevitable pillaging, plundering, looting, raping - let's not forget the raping - remember the Moorish invasions in the Iberian peninsula and Italy - and let's enjoy the ride.

When China succeeds in conquering the world do you actually think the Chinese culture will ever feel one ounce of guilt for the plight of starving Europeans? I doubt it. No, it's the 'white' man's burden that's for sure.
 
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I'm totally confused, I mean, isn't integration a two way process? :?

In my opinion 'integration' is the responsibility not only of the immigrant but also of the host society.

So what should we do with those immigrants? Should we send them back to their home country? :?



I think there's an important conceptual distinction to be made between integration and assimilation, a distinction fairly common in the social sciences:

Integration is the social process through which a person becomes a member of a new society; it must be something mutual in which the new society must be actively welcoming, and the new member actively showing his/her desire to become a member, otherwise the process will collapse. But at the same time I think it's necessary today to reckon with a powerful third party to the equation: EU. Lot's of things a single European member state can or can't do is because of the EU rules and laws.

Assimilation is something very different, stupid and dangerous. Assimilation is the project to transform human beings into becoming stereotype atoms of homogenous language, culture and society. Assimilation is the pet project of moder nationalism, where every citizen must be an exact replica of the national model.

Why do I say it's dangerous and stupid?

Because homogenous languages, homogenous cultures, homogenous societies are - just like the blue blood of nobility I talked about in a different thread months ago - NON EXISTANT THING! The fact that you can say "homogenous culture" or "homogenous whatever" doesn't mean it exist (as Immanuel Kant told us in 1781 "Kritik der Reinen Vernunft").

Trying to make non-existant thing be, to make them happen is a) totally futile; b) dangerous. To make iron float on water isn't imaginative. It's stupid.
 

W!nston

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To make iron float on water isn't imaginative. It's stupid.
:rofl:

I don't want to sound like Captain Obvious but... modern ships are made from iron and they float on water. Well, for the most part, except the ones that sink like the Titanic but you get my meaning, surely you get my meaning.

I just wanted to make you smile gorgik.

Carry on, men...
 

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After I posted about European colonization a couple of posts back I read this and thought it germane to the topic so here it is:

Map: European colonialism conquered every country in the world but these five

It's no secret that European colonialism was a vast, and often devastating, project that over several centuries put nearly the entire world under control of one European power or another. But just how vast can be difficult to fully appreciate.

Here, to give you a small sense of European colonialism's massive scale, is a map showing every country put under partial or total European control during the colonial era, which ran roughly from the 1500s to the 1960s. Only five countries, in orange, were spared:

207376519439157acf7b8ee53b934ae218624254.png


As you can see, just about every corner of the globe was colonized outright or was dominated under various designations like "protectorate" or "mandate," all of which are indicated in green. This includes the entirety of the Americas (French Guiana is incorrectly labeled as part of Europe due a technical issue, but make no mistake, it was colonized) and all of Africa save for little Liberia. More on Liberia later. The Middle East and Asia were divided up as well.

Some countries instead fell under "spheres of influence," marked in yellow, in which a European power would declare that country or some part of it subject to their influence, which was a step removed from but in practice not all that distinct from conquering it outright. Iran, for example, was divided between British and Russian sphere of influence, which meant that the European powers owned exclusive rights to Iranian oil and gas in their areas, among other things.

Most of the areas under spheres of influence on this map were politically dominated by the British, who ruled through proxies: Afghanistan (which also endured Russian influence), Bhutan, and Nepal. Mongolia was effectively a proxy state of the Soviet Union for much of the Cold War.

Something similar happened in China, where European powers established parts of coastal cities or trade ports as "concessions," which they occupied and controlled. Some, such as Shanghai, were divided into multiple European concessions. Others, like British-controlled Hong Kong, were fully absorbed into the European empires. This is why China is labelled as partially dominated by Europe.

Modern-day Saudi Arabia came under partial domination; in the early 1900s, most of the Arabian peninsula transitioned from the Ottoman Empire to the British Empire, though the British left much of the peninsula's vast interior relatively untouched. Parts of modern-day Turkey itself were divided among World War One's European victors, though Turkish nationalists successfully expelled them almost immediately in a war for independence that established modern-day Turkey.

There are only four countries that escaped European colonialism completely. Japan and Korea successfully staved off European domination, in part due to their strength and diplomacy, their isolationist policies, and perhaps their distance. Thailand was spared when the British and French Empires decided to let it remained independent as a buffer between British-controlled Burma and French Indochina. Japan, however, colonized both Korea and Thailand itself during its early-20th-century imperial period.

Then there is Liberia, which European powers spared because the United States backed the Liberian state, which was established in the early 1800s by freed American slaves who had decided to move to Africa. The Liberian project was fraught — the Americans who moved there ruled as a privileged minority, and the US and European powers shipped former slaves there rather than actually account for their enslavement — but it escaped European domination.

There is also debate as to whether Ethiopia could be considered the sixth country never subjugated by European colonialism. Italy colonized neighboring countries, and Ethiopia ceded several territories to Italian colonization as part of an 1889 treaty. The treaty was also intended to force Ethiopia to cede its foreign affairs to Italy — a hallmark of colonial subjugation — but the Amharic version of the treaty excluded this fact due to a mistranslation, leading to a war that Italy lost. Later, Italy conquered Ethiopia in 1935 and annexed it the next year, but this lasted only until 1941. While some consider this period of Italian rule to be a function of colonialism, others argue that it's better understood as part of World War Two and thus no more Italian colonization than the Nazi conquest of Poland was German colonization — although it could be certainly be argued that these fascist expansions were in fact a form of colonialism, as many eastern Europeans might.

The colonial period began its end after World War Two, when the devastated nations of Western Europe could no longer afford to exert such global influence and as global norms shifted against them. The turning point is sometimes considered the 1956 Suez Crisis, in which the US and Soviet Union pressured British and French troops to withdraw after invading Egypt to seize the Suez Canal with Israeli help. But it took a couple of decades for the European colonialism to fully collapse; France was fighting for Algeria until 1962 and Portugal did not abandon its African colonies until 1974. So this map, of a European-dominated world, is not as distant as it may feel for many Americans.

SOURCE
 

W!nston

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If we all agree with each other's opinions the discussion will be a bit on the dull side. I'd rather have some disagreement for the sake of a more interesting read.
 

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:rofl:

I don't want to sound like Captain Obvious but... modern ships are made from iron and they float on water. Well, for the most part, except the ones that sink like the Titanic but you get my meaning, surely you get my meaning.

I just wanted to make you smile gorgik.

Carry on, men...

About ships: yeah, sure but that's because of the ship's shape and the volume of water the ship can push aside according to the physical laws discovered by Archimedes.

But what I should have said was of course you can't have a solid piece of iron float on water - or a solid piece of anything with a higher density than water.
 
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gorgik9

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you're absolutely right but I was waiting for a reply to my question because I read a sort of hostility against immigrants between the lines of this thread and I don't like generalisation, please correct me if I misunderstood...

I think I understand full well what you're talking about, and I have also sensed some pretty ugly vibes in some posts in this thread. Remember we have lots and lots of ultra rightwing parties, neofascist parties and sweet good old nazi parties in so many European national parlaments today.

To take my own country - Sweden - as an example: we have today a political party named "Sverigedemokraterns" in the Swedish parlament that got 13% of the votes in the last election (2014). And this party is a direct descendent of the jolly good old Hitlerites of yesterday. :sick::sick::sick:
 

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In the interest of full disclosure let me re-iterate I am a liberal Gay man who believes in equality for all and generosity for those less fortunate. I am not a right-wing extremist.

However I do think there should be some measure of respect shown for a country and it's culture when that country opens it's doors as the famous quote from Emma Lazarus says:

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”

If one dares speak in opposition to giving great latitude to cultural reformations then one runs the risk of being classified as a right-wing or Nazi sympathizer. If that's the case then so be it. The tide of public opinion turns quickly and sometime in the future opinions will change with that tide.

If you live in a country that is as open as America you have to expect change. Many countries are not subject to the swift changes we have in America. Citizens of those countries may have academic understanding of those changes but that is a poor substitute for living through those changes personally.

I'm not sure how many members of GH lived through the Nazi era in Europe. Maybe there are some and maybe they will add their personal experiences to discussions such as this.

The Nazi era was without a doubt one of the worst times for Europeans in centuries. It shouldn't be compared to other eras lightly or without good reason.
 

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Don't know, where you live. But a lot of them DON'T feel or think german - the opposite is the case. (Depends, from what part of the world they are comming)

So you don't see Portuguese, Spaniards, Belgians, Greeks, French, Italians p.e. running arround and shouting : Fucking Germans ! Because we have a similar background. But there are others ...

what do you know about Germany ? it appears not much !
 

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Thank you, my thoughts are exactly in line with yours :)

there is another distinction between integration and assimilation :

if one is integrated into a society, he belongs. if he is assimilated, he appears to belong
 

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I think it's a bit ridiculous to talk about the evil nationalists in Europe (and they are truly evil !) and to forget about the tea party and GOP in the sweet US of A ...
 
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