Madness In Russia... Please Take A Stand Now!

[ihno]

Despite the repeal of St Petersburg’s city wide gay propaganda law [...],

When and why was that? And there is still the Duma law, is there not?

 

[haiducii]

When and why was that? And there is still the Duma law, is there not?

Gay rights activists suspect ban was repealed is because lawmakers do not want to be 'humiliated' by the European Court of Human Rights...

For more details click HERE

 

[ihno]

hhhm, of course I searched for "Petersburg" in their machine but nothing came up. I should have ordered it by date.

It seems it's as I guessed: there's a federal law now, so they don't need an extra one.

As for the article: "Lawyer and gay rights activist Nikolai Alekseev, who was the only person charged under the law in its two year history, has suggested Milonov was ‘scared’ the law would be forceably overturned by the European Court of Human Rights."

forceably overturned by the European Court of Human Rights? Russia is not a member of the European Union, so European Courts don't have anything to say in Russia.

edit: Oh, have to correct. Even Russia and Turkey have joined the charta. 26% of all cases of the court today have to do with Russia and Russia was convicted 175 times, according to german Wiki.

 

[chgotop]

Boycott Vodka

 

[dargelos]

There is already a campaign to remove Russian vodka from gay bars, chgotop. Note that many Russian sounding vodkas are really made in other countries, the revolting Popov is American, Smirnov, suprisingly, is British.

 

[ihno]

Amercian? British? YEAH, let the boycot come.

No, seriously: I don't see any real value in a boykot of Wodka.

 

[W!nston]

Alcohol in all it's forms is a curse on man. It has some beneficial uses such as a disinfectant and for pain relief. As a recreational drug it is addictive and very destructive to our bodies. It is misused and abused. It should be more strictly regulated.

I doubt any boycott of vodka will do more than increase sales of other alcoholic products, lol.

 

[dargelos]

You are both quite right, the boycott of Russian alcohol is in itself not important. However the change in market share when consumers change to non Russian brands of booze reduces the whole value of the countries drink manufacturing industry. Increased sales from rival countries reduces market share, and status, even if domestic sales are unchanged.
I know what too much drink does, Sniffit, that's why I don't touch it anymore, but as to a change in the law, no, every man must remain free to choose his own poison.

 

[tonka]

Stoli for the Russian market is made in Russia.
But export Stoli is made in Latvia. So drinking Stoli will do nothing for Czar Putin.

 

[brmstn69]

Boycotting vodka won't do shit...

Russia's biggest export is crude petroleum, which accounts for 39% of their foreign trade. Their biggest customers are The Netherlands, China, Japan, and Germany.

If you want to hurt Russia, walk or ride a bike...

 

[ihno]

There are agencies in Russia that do nothing but post russian propaganda in social networks and media. If you really want to do something against the Russian policy I guess it's better to post on websites, make comments and give them some honest contra.

 

[dargelos]

Would those with an expert knowledge of history like to comment on the idea that while we need to show that we can back up words with actions, there is a limit to how far we can hurt Russia if we don't want to repeat what happened in Germany after the end of WW1. A crushed society learning to resent the rest of the world makes bad choices.

 

[brmstn69]

Would those with an expert knowledge of history like to comment on the idea that while we need to show that we can back up words with actions, there is a limit to how far we can hurt Russia if we don't want to repeat what happened in Germany after the end of WW1. A crushed society learning to resent the rest of the world makes bad choices.

That's because we made the same mistake then as we are now with Afghanistan and Iraq, we let them govern themselves. Liberating sheep does no good, they just get rounded up by another shepherd.

Instead they must be conquered and governed by occupying forces, This is how we did it with Japan after WWII. We conquered them and ruled over them until we were sure they could survive on their own. Douglas MacArthur was a horrible war time leader, he bungled more operations than I could list here, but he was masterful as governor over Japan. He laid the foundation of democracy and helped guide Japan into the world power it is today...

 

[ihno]

Would those with an expert knowledge of history like to comment on the idea that while we need to show that we can back up words with actions, there is a limit to how far we can hurt Russia if we don't want to repeat what happened in Germany after the end of WW1. A crushed society learning to resent the rest of the world makes bad choices.

I agree that it's not good to push Russia in a box or corner. It’s simply not smart and not wise. Russia is a big country and you simply can’t ignore like Belarus. If the West wants Russia to change its policy towards its neighbors and/or minorities you must give Putin a reason to do so. Sanctions are most promising means to reach that goal.

Putin is not an irrational radical like Hitler was.

Putin is politically flexible and rational. Putin plays a game yes, but he doesn’t have a “must obey” ideology behind like Hitler had. Hitler was a) driven by his own irrational world-sight and b) by the dynamic power of the Nazi-movement.

Hitler informed the major generals there will be a WW2 four days after he became Chancellour (Liebmann protocol 1933/02/03 http://anonym.to/http://ghdi.ghi-dc.org/sub_document.cfm?document_id=1538 )

Therefore the comparison “Czechoslovakia 1918 = Ukraine 2014” is only valid at first sight. Hitler wanted a war already then and was very unhappy with Goring and Mussolini raining in his parade.

As for the comparison Russia to Germany: yes and no. There is a theory about the “European civil war” from 1914 – 1945. But that is misleading in some ways, f.e. in the way that Hitler was the consequence of the mistreatment of Germany at Versailles in 1919. That’s not true.

There were strong anti-democratic movements in Germany (nationalsocialistic and communistic) and there were no real democrats in Weimar. But there were also enough things that could have make history a different turn.

Gustav Stresemann and George Briand f.e. Also the appeasement policy of the British started in 1925 (and not in 1938 as many think).

There are similarities between the "offical mindset" in Russia and German history. But the idea, that Germany or "being german" is something different from the "corrupt West" and unique didn't came up after WW1, it was acutally all there before WW1.

I’ve mentioned it before: Vaclav Havel said it would take two generations to make the communism forgotten and heal the wounds it caused. Yesterday I spoke to a friend from Lviv in Ukraine he said they would need a “real” liberal party. But you need “real” liberals for that and those are normally people who grew up in a state of freedom without fear of the state. He answered that a party like that - when it finally comes - would get much support.

You don’t have those "born democrats" in Russia too – you very often hear of the “soviet type man”.

The Nazi movement (and other fascist and communist movements in Germany and other countries) were dynamic movements coming “from the bottom”.

The Russian “new conservatism” is something from the top. Of course there are strong nationalists in Russia but they are not an "unstopable force".

So I don't think the new-conservative attitude in Russia is a "natural" force. It's a political scheme.

Putin is in power for 12 years and then suddenly finds out that he must stop gay propaganda? I can only explain this with a scheme to keep him in power.

If I remember correctly Putin had the constitution changed several times to be able to be in charge longer. So I don't think there is a strong "street movement" demanding anti-gay-laws or the ban of high heels or sexy underwear.

As said: Therefore Putin is not an irrational radical like Hitler was. Putin is politically flexible and rational (The NS irrationalism had its own logic too but that’s a different thing). Putin plays a game yes, but he doesn’t have a “must obey” ideology behind like Hitler had. Hitler was a) driven by his own irrational world-sight and b) by the dynamic power of the Nazi-movement.

If there is the chance to catch Putin by his ratio it's not by pushing him in a corner. There has to be a way out.

 

[dargelos]

There is a slight risk with the brmstn method, that slight risk being the start of World War Three. If I were a hawk I would say 'never mind, a few billion dead is a price worth paying' but since that few billion would include me, I am not a hawk.

 

[tonka]

Reasonable. practical action. That's what's possible. And it might work well enough.

We must assume Putin is rational, though we may be wrong. If Putin were rational and wise, none of this would be happening. But maybe he's rational enough.

Trying to change and reform Russia? We've tried that quite a few times with other countries. Iraq is falling apart. What a waste of lives and treasure.

Energy sanctions? Is the EU ready to replace 30% of its energy imports?
A nudge away from them might be helpful. Maybe a 20% tax on Russian energy imports. Moves business in other directions without causing mayhem.

The effective short term jolt would be isolating them in terms of financial markets, in a very serious way. There is no real alternative to the western based financial system. It would hurt their economy quickly, and significantly.
At this point, Russia has the billionaires, and a very large number of government workers. Both groups will stay in line as long as the money flows. Pinch off that tap...

I think I just laid out the U S strategy. Sorry. I'm not with the government. But I did shake John Kerry's hand once.
He was buying a Christmas tree in Cambridge. I was too.

 

[haiducii]

Dutch offer asylum to Russian gays

The Netherlands is making it easier for LGBT Russians to apply for asylum, due to the country’s ‘gay propaganda’ law. Russians will be able to apply for asylum more easily...

READ MORE

 

[dargelos]

The Dutch are such nice people, most of them. There won't be many votes in this, they are doing it because it's the right thing not because it's the popular thing.

 

[tonka]

Lucky Dutch. The Russian boys around here are pretty hot.

 

[Sinnerr]

A new tool for russian Police:



every policeman will be equiped to be able to determine too high heels
:rofl:

heh I'm not serious, but imaginig that situation (policemen are measuring heels in the streets) is seriously ridiculous