Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

[flesh84]

Pope Francis has said gay people should not be marginalised but integrated into society.

Speaking to reporters on a flight back from Brazil, he reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's position that homosexual acts were sinful, but homosexual orientation was not.

"If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge them?"

He also said he wanted a greater role for women in the Church, but insisted they could not be priests.

The Pope arrived back in Rome on Monday after a week-long tour of Brazil - his first trip abroad as pontiff - which climaxed with a huge gathering on Rio de Janeiro's Copacabana beach for a world Catholic youth festival.

Festival organisers estimated it attracted more than three million people.

His remarks on gay people - in response to questions about whether there was a "gay lobby" in the Vatican - are being seen as much more conciliatory than his predecessor's position on the issue.

Pope Benedict XVI signed a doent in 2005 that said men with deep-rooted homosexual tendencies should not be priests.

But Pope Francis said gay clergymen should be forgiven and their sins forgotten.

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well," Pope Francis said in a wide-ranging 80-minute long interview with Vatican journalists.

"It says they should not be marginalised because of this but that they must be integrated into society."

But he condemned what he described as lobbying by gay people.

"The problem is not having this orientation," he said. "We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem."

On the role of women in the Church, he said: "We cannot limit the role of women in the Church to altar girls or the president of a charity, there must be more.

"But with regards to the ordination of women, the Church has spoken and says no... That door is closed."

Answering questions about the troubled Vatican bank, he said the institution must become "honest and transparent" and that he would listen to advice on whether it could be reformed or should be shut down altogether.

"I don't know what will become of the bank. Some say it is better that is a bank, others that it should be a charitable fund and others say close it," he said.

'Undisciplined'
Before leaving Brazil, Pope Francis gave a highly unusual one-to-one interview to a Brazilian TV programme.

The interview was shown on TV Globo's high-profile Sunday night doentary programme Fantastico, broadcast not long after the Pope departed for Rome.

The Pope was asked about the moment on his visit when his driver took a wrong turn and his vehicle was surrounded by crowds.

"I don't feel afraid," he answered. "I know that no-one dies before their time.

"I don't want to see these people who have such a great heart from behind a glass box. The two security teams [from the Vatican and Brazil] worked very well. But I know that I am undisciplined in that respect."

Asked about the recent protests by young people on the streets of Brazil, the Pope said: "The young person is essentially a non-conformist, and this is very beautiful.

"It is necessary to listen to young people, give them places to express themselves and to be careful that they aren't manipulated."

Asked about his simple lifestyle and use of a small car, he said it wasn't a good example when a priest had the latest model of a car or a top brand.

"At this moment I believe God is asking us for more simplicity," he added.

Source: BBC

 

[ihno]

as long as they don't build a camarilla in the Vatikan...

 

[josh_the_hot_boy]

I'm not a follower of the catholic faith but I respect Pope Francis and I think he's taking the church in a better direction.

 

[gb2000ie]

Unlike his predecessor, I respect Pope Francis. But, while the messenger is a much worthier man, the message is largely the same. "It's OK to be gay, just don't BE gay". It seems gay men need to live loveless lives of celibacy in the eyes of the church. I find that hard to square with Jesus's message of love, but what do I know?

This notion that women need to be more involved, but goodness me no, not as priests is really quite condescending. If I were a woman I doubt I'd be particularly impressed by that.

Pope Francis seems a kinder, more empathetic man than Ratzinger, but he's still a Catholic Pope, and he's still peddling an out-dated and ultimately suppressive message.

B.

 

[tonka]

The church moves slowly. This is a HUGE thing. Not just this statement, but his whole stance.
A church of love, not a church of condemnation. A lot of Catholics here in America have been waiting for this for a very long time.

 

[Oege]

As I read in the papers here the pope said "you can be gay as long as you not have GAY sex"? Same sad story over and over again...

 

[lunita]

The longest journey starts with a single step. And he has taken it. Is it perfect? No. But it is a step in the right direction, at last. I'm not Catholic but I respect this guy. He really is a mover and a shaker. A new breath of fresh air that is sorely long past due. Vincent, I salute you for taking a plunge into the deep end!!!

 

[Stoic]

^ Wish he'd live longer. But he's stepping on too many toes and I'm worried for him.

 

[gb2000ie]

^ Wish he'd live longer. But he's stepping on too many toes and I'm worried for him.

Even without any foul play, there's no denying he's an old man. With the best will in the world this will always be a much shorter pontificate than JPII.

B.

 

[tonka]

His age may help him.
Sometimes old people are rigid and stuck in the past. But sometimes it can free up your spirit.
I'm old; I'm the pope; lets give it a shot.

 

[Urban]

Sorry for getting in late here.

There's really nothing new here. Both of these positions (re gays & women) have been stated before; they are both official positions of the Catholic Church & have been for some time.

The only thing new is the pope's apparently offhanded support of them; he appears to be more spontaneous in his support, but he still has been toeing the line. Whatever personal opinions he might have, he's still constrained by prior decisions.

I think it's good that he's said these things, but I don't see any hint that any policy changes are in the works.

 

[gb2000ie]

Sorry for getting in late here.

There's really nothing new here. Both of these positions (re gays & women) have been stated before; they are both official positions of the Catholic Church & have been for some time.

The only thing new is the pope's apparently offhanded support of them; he appears to be more spontaneous in his support, but he still has been toeing the line. Whatever personal opinions he might have, he's still constrained by prior decisions.

I think it's good that he's said these things, but I don't see any hint that any policy changes are in the works.

I think the humility in the off-handed "who am I to judge" comment is new, even if the policies aren't.

B.

 

[bigsal]

Sorry for getting in late here.

There's really nothing new here. Both of these positions (re gays & women) have been stated before; they are both official positions of the Catholic Church & have been for some time.

The only thing new is the pope's apparently offhanded support of them; he appears to be more spontaneous in his support, but he still has been toeing the line. Whatever personal opinions he might have, he's still constrained by prior decisions.

I think it's good that he's said these things, but I don't see any hint that any policy changes are in the works.

I would say that your analysis is correct.

Do not let yourself be dazzled by the usual good intentions made ​​only of words and not followed by action.
Did you not know that all the journalists admitted to the Papal entourage are Vaticanists, with accreditation of the Vatican, with allowed to follow him and to interview him.
Their questions, first being formulated, are subjected to careful analysis.

One thing is certain, to a journalist like Helen Thomas would never have been allowed to interview the Pope

This Pope has a goal achieved. Can communicate much better than his predeccessore.

On the issue of gay rights, the former Argentine Cardinal Bergoglio was not at all tolerant, when the Argentine government has approved gay marriage. Go see with how much anger and violence has countered this decision.
So there are two cases, or tells falsehoods to prove that it is a good pope or is a big hypocrite.

One last thing. Were inflated so outrageous even numbers regarding the number of participants the final mass.
From careful and appronfondite analysis performed with telemetry equipment and sosfisticate, it was found that the number of those present were not even half of more the 3 million people, declared with the official communication of the Vatican.

So you see, it's not all that glitters is gold. Only the great propaganda, to boost the image of the apparatus of the Catholic Church, in free fall from many years.

 

[Urban]

On the issue of gay rights, the former Argentine Cardinal Bergoglio was not at all tolerant, when the Argentine government has approved gay marriage. Go see with how much anger and violence has countered this decision.

This brings to mind an interesting thought. Forgive me for getting off the track here.

Years ago, after the days of Pope John XXIII (by a long shot the best pope in my memory), some liberal priests & nuns started getting into politics & trying to sway political thought in the direction of concern for the poor, etc. After some years, the pope at the time (I can't recall who, the ones after John XXIII were all the same to me) stopped it & declared that the clergy could no longer be involved in politics.

Now not only the lower clergy but bishops, cardinals, & even the popes are pronouncing judgments on political matters all over the world.

Apparently if someone espouses liberal causes, it's an unjustified intrusion into politics, but if it's a conservative cause, it's a matter of faith & morals.

 

[bigsal]

You could not be more clear than that.

Unfortunately, they know that most of mankind is a flock that he does not think on his own, leaving tame like the lost sheeps and conducted in the "their" fence.

 

[tonka]

The best known political priest in America was Father Robert Drinan. He was a friend of my cousin's. He was a very liberal congressman for a decade until John Paul II ordered him to stop. He complied.
He was succeeded in the seat by Barney Frank. Barney was famously outed in a rentboy scandal, but stayed in congress and became a real gay rights icon. Barney recently retired, and a young Kennedy has the seat now.

 

[MrMonkey]

Pope Francis said nothing new.

He just reiterated Church teaching but conveyed it with a pastoral tone.

With simple phrases, it was like theology for dummies and many heard the message as if for the first time.

Official teaching accepts gay people, bud has problems with gay sex.

Church teachings on the issues of morality won't change, and you shouldn't expect that from this or any pope in the near future.

Besides, my cousin, who is a priest, once told me that Church thinks not in 4-year terms, but in centuries, and thousands of years. So they are in no hurry.

 

[Tjerk12]

I felt a little doubt posting this. I do respect religion, but I could not resist the temptation to post this song of a Dutch singer/songwriter, who had a great hit with it in The Netherlands in the early seventies of the last century. His name is Robert Long (he died several years ago). He was the first openly gay pop star in The Netherlands. I will give you the lyrics in Dutch. It is for me too difficult to translate everything, so I translate only the beginning and the end. If some youngster is able to translate all of it, he is welcome. But for me it is far too difficult. The song is about the hypocrisy of religion .
Title of the song: Jesus Saves. (this is a short version, a bit less confrontating)



lyrics in Dutch:

Toen 't Christendom op aarde kwam,
en ieder mens het recht ontnam.
Om zo te leven als hij dacht dat het goed was
en heel de aardkorst dik bevlekt met bloed was.
Werd het meteen de hoogste tijd,
dat heidenen na zware strijd.
Door legers door de kerk geleid,
van hun cultuur werden bevrijd.


Soms wordt een land vol hongersnood,
bezocht door weer zo'n vrome kloot,
die steeds dezelfde oude kool komt stoven
en roept, vanuit zijn draagstoel, "blijft geloven".
Die zegenend naar mensen zwaait
voor ieder lijk zijn hoofd omdraait;
elk argument van tafel maait
en steeds opnieuw de mensen paait.

Jezus redt, Jezus redt, alle mensen opgelet;
Jezus redt, Jezus redt, enkel door het gebed.


Het is maar al te waar helaas,
de paus, de kerstman, sinterklaas.
Ze zijn al eeuwen lang de baas,
En eeuwen lang al even dwaas.

Jezus redt, Jezus redt, alle mensen uit de nood;
Jezus redt Jezus redt Jezus uit de goot.


Translation in English;

the beginning:

When Christianity came to earth
And everybody forbid to live
The life they considered to be good
Etc. etc.

the end:

Unfortunately it is all true,
The Pope, Father Christmas, Saint Nicholas,
They are the boss for centuries,
And equally foolish for all that time

Jesus saves, Jesus saves, all the people in trouble
Jesus saves, Jesus, save Jesus out of the gutter

Let us hope that this Pope is able to save Jesus.

 

[topdog]

I agree that the "who am I to judge" approach was a 180 degree turn from Pope Benedict who took every opportunity to proclaim how homosexuals are "disordered". I think the statement reflects where Pope Francis's priorities are. Where his predecessor saw the Church as a fortress besieged by the corruption of the modern world, the current pope wants to open the doors and mend the bridges back to the people. Benedict, I think, felt threatened by gay marriage and acceptance. For Francis this is not such a big deal and there are far more important matters on which to focus.

Catholic doctrine supports both Benedict's and Francis's views. Neither one is changing anything. It is a striking change in emphasis, however.

...Did you not know that all the journalists admitted to the Papal entourage are Vaticanists, with accreditation of the Vatican, with allowed to follow him and to interview him. Their questions, first being formulated, are subjected to careful analysis.
...

I don't know what qualifies a person as a "Vaticanist", but I do know that journalists covering the pope are free to ask whatever questions they want. (Whether the questions are answered is another matter.)

Yes, they are credentialed, because there are only so many seats on the plane. But that is no different than the press corps that follows the US President. Their press badge gives them access inside the Vatican.

John Thavis was a member of that press corps for 30 years. Earlier this year he released his book The Vatican Diaries: A Behind-the-Scenes Look at the Power, Personalities, and Politics at the Heart of the Catholic Church. It is quite an interesting read if you want to hear stories of how things work "behind the scenes". And, of course, he also details the process of covering the Vatican, both in Rome and when the Pope is "on tour".

And yes, I think Helen Thomas could have pressed for answers from the Pope and other officials. But she wouldn't have lasted long - she would have died of boredom. The Church moves slowly and most of what happens doesn't qualify as "news" in a fast-moving Twitter/Cable news world. (The first half of this year excepted.)

 

[tonka]

I wanted to bump up this thread about Pope Francis. He continues to delight and surprise the liberals (and make the conservatives uneasy).

Last week the Vatican published a doent requesting input before next year's synod of bishops. There were questions about same sex communities within the papal sea. The thrust was not about condemnation, or distancing, but how to understand and minister to gay Catholics.

We've seen that Francis is a master of the public gesture. But this suggests that he is also moving the bureaucracy to a more engaging way of thinking.